big ron
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David Cameron getting a HGV licence is very 2022
The War in Ukraine
- Thread starter Soldi
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It was more complicated. Putin gave Yanukovich a bung along with threats. Those golden toilets won't buy themselves. The NATO thing is a figleaf. Giving Ukraine a powerful defence union would make Moscow's encroaches into Ukrainian territory nigh on impossible. Part of the reason why Moscow's demands include the demilitarisation of Ukraine, all the while tooling up Crimea and the Donbass. If you want to look at what motivates Putin, have a look at his mentor, Aleksandr Duganin. His neo-nazi philosophy is grist to Putin's mill. Putin wants a subservient Ukraine. No ties to the west, no defence, no nothing.
The EU was bound to drive a hard bargain because Yanukovich and his rotten party were corrupt as hell. Robbing both Russia (often in collusion) and the west. You would hardly expect the EU to dole out taxpayers' money with zero strings attached so that Yanukovich could recreate the Hermitage in his bathroom.
As for Ukraine's history, this is Russia in a nutshell:
That shows a map from 1914. The green area is that which was populated by majority (basically 100%) Ukrainian speakers. It extends well beyond Ukraine's borders into the Kuban. Rostov, Krasnodar, Voronizh were Ukrainian towns back than. Note also Crimea. It had a Ukrainian majority back then before the deportations started. Since then, there have been successive waves of repression. suppression of anything vaguely encouraging a Ukrainian consciousness and a strict policy of Russification. This gives the likes of Putin a pretext for chipping away at Ukraine by ostensibly "protecting the rights of Russian speakers". Today, at Putin's Nuremberg Rally, you might have noticed the many banners proclaiming "Наших не бросаем!", - "We won't abandon our own!" And so it goes. Insisting on "protection for Russian speakers and the Russian language" and then marching in to "protect them from Ukrainian nazis". Why do you think Russia kept insisting on a federal Ukraine? If you want to see where Russia is going with this, google "Novorossiya". Just beware of any Soviet/Russian historical tracts. They are high in dogma and low in facts.
The Azov batallion in beleaguered Mariupol is full of Russian speakers. Its former neo-nazi founders have long been pushed out and it is more or less another squadron. On the other hand, banners from Russia's own fascist Sparta batallion were very much in evidence at the Luzhniki stadium. But Russia has nukes, so Russia is always right and Russia gets what it wants. This kind of shit has been going on for centuries and I'm kind of tired having to explain it to people who focus on irrelevant minutiae like NATO as if that is what really matters in this. Putin laid his store out on his accession. Regardless of what Ukraine did, he was going to go in sooner or later.
Zelensky isn't without fault in all this. He took his eye off the ball and didn't think Putin would be that demented to do what he did. The west should have kept a presence inside of Ukraine and helped to tool it up properly. Unfortunately, people blinked and Putin installed his useful idiots everywhere while poisoning the internet.
Your posts.It was more complicated. Putin gave Yanukovich a bung along with threats. Those golden toilets won't buy themselves. The NATO thing is a figleaf. Giving Ukraine a powerful defence union would make Moscow's encroaches into Ukrainian territory nigh on impossible. Part of the reason why Moscow's demands include the demilitarisation of Ukraine, all the while tooling up Crimea and the Donbass. If you want to look at what motivates Putin, have a look at his mentor, Aleksandr Duganin. His neo-nazi philosophy is grist to Putin's mill. Putin wants a subservient Ukraine. No ties to the west, no defence, no nothing.
The EU was bound to drive a hard bargain because Yanukovich and his rotten party were corrupt as hell. Robbing both Russia (often in collusion) and the west. You would hardly expect the EU to dole out taxpayers' money with zero strings attached so that Yanukovich could recreate the Hermitage in his bathroom.
As for Ukraine's history, this is Russia in a nutshell:
That shows a map from 1914. The green area is that which was populated by majority (basically 100%) Ukrainian speakers. It extends well beyond Ukraine's borders into the Kuban. Rostov, Krasnodar, Voronizh were Ukrainian towns back than. Note also Crimea. It had a Ukrainian majority back then before the deportations started. Since then, there have been successive waves of repression. suppression of anything vaguely encouraging a Ukrainian consciousness and a strict policy of Russification. This gives the likes of Putin a pretext for chipping away at Ukraine by ostensibly "protecting the rights of Russian speakers". Today, at Putin's Nuremberg Rally, you might have noticed the many banners proclaiming "Наших не бросаем!", - "We won't abandon our own!" And so it goes. Insisting on "protection for Russian speakers and the Russian language" and then marching in to "protect them from Ukrainian nazis". Why do you think Russia kept insisting on a federal Ukraine? If you want to see where Russia is going with this, google "Novorossiya". Just beware of any Soviet/Russian historical tracts. They are high in dogma and low in facts.
The Azov batallion in beleaguered Mariupol is full of Russian speakers. Its former neo-nazi founders have long been pushed out and it is more or less another squadron. On the other hand, banners from Russia's own fascist Sparta batallion were very much in evidence at the Luzhniki stadium. But Russia has nukes, so Russia is always right and Russia gets what it wants. This kind of shit has been going on for centuries and I'm kind of tired having to explain it to people who focus on irrelevant minutiae like NATO as if that is what really matters in this. Putin laid his store out on his accession. Regardless of what Ukraine did, he was going to go in sooner or later.
Zelensky isn't without fault in all this. He took his eye off the ball and didn't think Putin would be that demented to do what he did. The west should have kept a presence inside of Ukraine and helped to tool it up properly. Unfortunately, people blinked and Putin installed his useful idiots everywhere while poisoning the internet.
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sidebar: the z symbolism makes my blood boil. it's outrageous and disgusting that he's turning it into a thing.
Indie
Adminisistrater
It just makes me think of a 90's PC game of the same name (and similar theme)
Place one over another and you have a swastika. They really are cretins for pushing this.
Not really surprising when you consider what I am about to post. This is from someone I know stuck in Kharkiv. He posts a lot of stuff that is happening there in his Instagram stories, most of it too gory to publish. Before the invasion, he was quite well-disposed towards Russians even travelling there on occasion. Kharkiv is under constant bombardment and yesterday his mother broke her leg trying to get to an air-raid shelter. Given the situation there, this could be life-threatening now. His hatred towards Russia knows no bounds now and the following will show you why. The English text is from him.
Embedded is a film compiled by TCH (TS News) of the tapped phone conversations. Russians having knocked out Ukraine's communications systems in the initial strikes are forced to use open 4G mobile networks, all their plans and phone calls are logged and recorded by Ukraine and its allies. Like I said, cretins.
The phone calls are all with family bragging about the civilians they have killed, beaten to death, raped etc. Including children. Horrible stuff. One mother seems horrified but most laugh.
Like I said. Ukrainians will never, ever forgive Russia for this. Ever.
One thing I'm starting to see more of are comparisons between this refugee crisis and the Middle Eastern and Afghani refugee crisis. Lots of people are raising the point that European governments have been much more open to Ukrainian refugees because they're White. It's not the nicest to think about at this moment, but we've already seen reports of African discrimination at some borders.
GinAg (39)
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How fucking big are these missiles to destroy a whole fucking shopping centre?
RaspberrySwirl
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This has been a big topic here, and there are of course elements of favourism and racism (especially in some Eastern European countries who back in 2015 openly said they didn’t want Muslim refugees), but people seem to forget that the EU, especially Sweden and Germany, took in a lot of people in the beginning of the crisis, when photos of Alan Kurdi were shared on social media people were doing their best here to welcome the refugees. Public opinion shifted later when the it became a practical problem to manage the big influx of refugees, and after the terrorist attacks in France and Belgium.
Also the main difference here is that the Ukrainians don’t have any other places to go to other than the EU (unless they want to go to Russia and Belarus) and they’re fleeing from a war that we could very much be involved in too anytime soon.
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Funky
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There is definitely a racist element to the immigration policy. Ironically it’s the government in the U.K. who are consistent - they were saying no to it. But the media and the general feeling is that we had to do something for Ukraine and the government were forced into a u turn. I don’t recall the same hunger to help people displaced in Syria/Afghanistan/Palestine etc
Cerro de Casa
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'There is nothing left there. Only ruins.'
Anyone else now reaching the stage of actively avoiding the news because of the traumatic nature of it?
I don't know.
I listened to the interview with the Mariupol theatre shelling survivor on R4 whilst driving home, and I had to stop, park and just contemplate for a bit.
Anyone else now reaching the stage of actively avoiding the news because of the traumatic nature of it?
I don't know.
I listened to the interview with the Mariupol theatre shelling survivor on R4 whilst driving home, and I had to stop, park and just contemplate for a bit.
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I'm trying and failing
I don't currently have a TV anyway and I have to say that watching all the visual horror and suffering over and over again (as is the way of TV news) would be far too much. A flick through The Guardian is more than I can reasonably bear
GinAg (39)
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RaspberrySwirl
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It’s crazy that this has already been going on over a month (I hadn’t realised). Let’s hope those peace talks lead to actual peace before the mud dries.
GinAg (39)
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We'll see
Saltwater
Ex QOTB
Russian recklessness around Ukraine's nuclear sites has Norway telling its citizens to 'dust off' their fallout shelters
"Ukraine has the most production of nuclear power in Europe and if an accident happens we will all in western Europe be affected," an official said.
www.businessinsider.com
I guess dust off is a phrasal verb cause I wouldn't mind a little dust if it all came down to that.
win_the_game
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The reports of Russian soldiers sleeping in trenches they dug in the contaminated zone, and subsequently suffering radiation poisoning are ghastly.
They are completely dispensable to the Russian government. Obviously that does not excuse what they are doing in Ukraine.
They are completely dispensable to the Russian government. Obviously that does not excuse what they are doing in Ukraine.
Saltwater
Ex QOTB
Was just reading a story about the soldiers being completely clueless about Chernobyl in general.
How's that even possible?
How's that even possible?
Cerro de Casa
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This is war.
I am not interested in which geopolitical ass started what.
win_the_game
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The reports of war crimes are horrific. There is nothing the Russian govt/military can say to justify indiscriminate shooting of civilians, killing people with their hands tied behind their backs or raping women (and worse 
).
).
Cerro de Casa
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I am helping in my own way via donations etc but I am increasingly feeling despondent
VoR
Take it or leave it
It’s not going to get any better after Orban’s crushing victory in Hungary tonight
It's BEYOND depressing what's happening in Bucha. I literally feel sick. Is West gonna do SHIT? It just feels like all talk and no one actually wants to get out of their comfy little bubble. This kind of approach is only going to make things worse in the long run.
Kratz
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I don’t disagree but what else is it you suggest is done? There isn’t going to be direct military intervention by NATO in Ukraine, we know that, so besides arming Ukraine (which has happened, is on-going, but can probably go further) and economic sanctions, what else is there? Perhaps one of the only cards left is to stop buying Russian oil and (more importantly) gas altogether. I wouldn’t hold your breath though.
I don't know but one of our experts here thinks the West has been doing a pretty bad job. Apparently Ukraine asked for a bunch of weapons from Germany which for some reason they decided to destroy instead?! Apparently they need a lot more than they have right now and things are stalling. I've also heard that the thinking among some of the politicians in West seems to be that they'd rather have Ukraine give something away to Russia as long as it ends the war as soon as possible which...would obviously be terrible and only short-term.
GinAg (39)
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win_the_game
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From the Guardian:
Nothing should surprise me at this point but how can they spout this utter bullshit?
Nothing should surprise me at this point but how can they spout this utter bullshit?
Iguana
If I only could...
We can barely run our own country in 2022, let alone plot a genocide
Cloud
Such a silly boy kisser
Some fur I started chatting with turns out to be Russian... (okay, I'm judging no one for that).... and a soldier... (oh...) and hopes I don't think badly of him.
I... I'm lost to be honest. I have NO idea what to think or say to something like that
I was just honest and said I support Ukraine and disagree with the war and the killing and like to think that if I was in that position I'd just turn around and say "this ain't right, I'm not doing it", but that I can't be too much of a judge not knowing the full circumstances and just hopes he's the type to avoid killing. And then backed away slowly.
He says he doesn't want the war either, which is good, but in my mind "you're still fighting it though mate".... on the other hand, like I say, we just don't know the circumstances i.e. the consequences they or their families would be facing for desertion. It's easy for us sat at home to think that we'd "do the right thing, even if they kill me for it" but not being in that position...
Eh, so conflicted. I'm kinda glad it's someone I only just got talking with so there's no attachment there.
I... I'm lost to be honest. I have NO idea what to think or say to something like that
I was just honest and said I support Ukraine and disagree with the war and the killing and like to think that if I was in that position I'd just turn around and say "this ain't right, I'm not doing it", but that I can't be too much of a judge not knowing the full circumstances and just hopes he's the type to avoid killing. And then backed away slowly.
He says he doesn't want the war either, which is good, but in my mind "you're still fighting it though mate".... on the other hand, like I say, we just don't know the circumstances i.e. the consequences they or their families would be facing for desertion. It's easy for us sat at home to think that we'd "do the right thing, even if they kill me for it" but not being in that position...
Eh, so conflicted. I'm kinda glad it's someone I only just got talking with so there's no attachment there.
Exactly the same stuff happened when Russia annexed Abkhazia from Georgia. No action was taken then and no action will be taken now. Just in case anyone was wondering, Ukrainians have already identified which division was occupying Bucha and who its general was. No surprises for guessing it was the Chechens. Some of the women had large swastikas burnt onto their stomachs, probably while being tortured before being killed. What probably isn't being publicised outside of Ukraine is that the Russians haven't just been aiming at women and children. Zoos, animal sanctuaries, stables and kennels have all been targeted. Dogs hung up by chains, animals slaughtered left right and centre or left locked up to starve to death. Cemeteries have been bombed including the largest in Chernihiv. Probably thought that Zelensky was handing out rifles to the dead as well.
Putin can't wriggle out of this one. His putrid channel is still blasting out this nazi line in Russia 24/7 even though it has been quietly dropped in the negotiations for a while now. Good to hear that the UK is sending 6000 long-range missiles capable of taking a ship out. That should give the Black Sea fleet pause for thought.