big ron
Chief Super Moderator
David Cameron getting a HGV licence is very 2022
It was more complicated. Putin gave Yanukovich a bung along with threats. Those golden toilets won't buy themselves. The NATO thing is a figleaf. Giving Ukraine a powerful defence union would make Moscow's encroaches into Ukrainian territory nigh on impossible. Part of the reason why Moscow's demands include the demilitarisation of Ukraine, all the while tooling up Crimea and the Donbass. If you want to look at what motivates Putin, have a look at his mentor, Aleksandr Duganin. His neo-nazi philosophy is grist to Putin's mill. Putin wants a subservient Ukraine. No ties to the west, no defence, no nothing.you're probably right about a lot of things but your analysis lacks any critical perspective outside of putin's desire to subjugate ukraine. i don't know much about ukraine's history, however, i do remember yanukovich's swing from the west to russia - the decision was not "a sudden volte-face" - he wanted eu integration but he was not happy with the conditions offered by the eu and the imf (some say with good reason, but it's obviously more complicated than that). more about it here.
Your posts.It was more complicated. Putin gave Yanukovich a bung along with threats. Those golden toilets won't buy themselves. The NATO thing is a figleaf. Giving Ukraine a powerful defence union would make Moscow's encroaches into Ukrainian territory nigh on impossible. Part of the reason why Moscow's demands include the demilitarisation of Ukraine, all the while tooling up Crimea and the Donbass. If you want to look at what motivates Putin, have a look at his mentor, Aleksandr Duganin. His neo-nazi philosophy is grist to Putin's mill. Putin wants a subservient Ukraine. No ties to the west, no defence, no nothing.
The EU was bound to drive a hard bargain because Yanukovich and his rotten party were corrupt as hell. Robbing both Russia (often in collusion) and the west. You would hardly expect the EU to dole out taxpayers' money with zero strings attached so that Yanukovich could recreate the Hermitage in his bathroom.
As for Ukraine's history, this is Russia in a nutshell:
That shows a map from 1914. The green area is that which was populated by majority (basically 100%) Ukrainian speakers. It extends well beyond Ukraine's borders into the Kuban. Rostov, Krasnodar, Voronizh were Ukrainian towns back than. Note also Crimea. It had a Ukrainian majority back then before the deportations started. Since then, there have been successive waves of repression. suppression of anything vaguely encouraging a Ukrainian consciousness and a strict policy of Russification. This gives the likes of Putin a pretext for chipping away at Ukraine by ostensibly "protecting the rights of Russian speakers". Today, at Putin's Nuremberg Rally, you might have noticed the many banners proclaiming "Наших не бросаем!", - "We won't abandon our own!" And so it goes. Insisting on "protection for Russian speakers and the Russian language" and then marching in to "protect them from Ukrainian nazis". Why do you think Russia kept insisting on a federal Ukraine? If you want to see where Russia is going with this, google "Novorossiya". Just beware of any Soviet/Russian historical tracts. They are high in dogma and low in facts.
The Azov batallion in beleaguered Mariupol is full of Russian speakers. Its former neo-nazi founders have long been pushed out and it is more or less another squadron. On the other hand, banners from Russia's own fascist Sparta batallion were very much in evidence at the Luzhniki stadium. But Russia has nukes, so Russia is always right and Russia gets what it wants. This kind of shit has been going on for centuries and I'm kind of tired having to explain it to people who focus on irrelevant minutiae like NATO as if that is what really matters in this. Putin laid his store out on his accession. Regardless of what Ukraine did, he was going to go in sooner or later.
Zelensky isn't without fault in all this. He took his eye off the ball and didn't think Putin would be that demented to do what he did. The west should have kept a presence inside of Ukraine and helped to tool it up properly. Unfortunately, people blinked and Putin installed his useful idiots everywhere while poisoning the internet.
sidebar: the z symbolism makes my blood boil. it's outrageous and disgusting that he's turning it into a thing.
sidebar: the z symbolism makes my blood boil. it's outrageous and disgusting that he's turning it into a thing.
One thing I'm starting to see more of are comparisons between this refugee crisis and the Middle Eastern and Afghani refugee crisis. Lots of people are raising the point that European governments have been much more open to Ukrainian refugees because they're White. It's not the nicest to think about at this moment, but we've already seen reports of African discrimination at some borders.
I'm trying and failing'There is nothing left there. Only ruins.'
Anyone else now reaching the stage of actively avoiding the news because of the traumatic nature of it?
I don't currently have a TV anyway and I have to say that watching all the visual horror and suffering over and over again (as is the way of TV news) would be far too much. A flick through The Guardian is more than I can reasonably bearI've not watched TV or listened to radio news since this began.
I don’t disagree but what else is it you suggest is done? There isn’t going to be direct military intervention by NATO in Ukraine, we know that, so besides arming Ukraine (which has happened, is on-going, but can probably go further) and economic sanctions, what else is there? Perhaps one of the only cards left is to stop buying Russian oil and (more importantly) gas altogether. I wouldn’t hold your breath though.It's BEYOND depressing what's happening in Bucha. I literally feel sick. Is West gonna do SHIT? It just feels like all talk and no one actually wants to get out of their comfy little bubble. This kind of approach is only going to make things worse in the long run.
I don't know but one of our experts here thinks the West has been doing a pretty bad job. Apparently Ukraine asked for a bunch of weapons from Germany which for some reason they decided to destroy instead?! Apparently they need a lot more than they have right now and things are stalling. I've also heard that the thinking among some of the politicians in West seems to be that they'd rather have Ukraine give something away to Russia as long as it ends the war as soon as possible which...would obviously be terrible and only short-term.I don’t disagree but what else is it you suggest is done? There isn’t going to be direct military intervention by NATO in Ukraine, we know that, so besides arming Ukraine (which has happened, is on-going, but can probably go further) and economic sanctions, what else is there? Perhaps one of the only cards left is to stop buying Russian oil and (more importantly) gas altogether. I wouldn’t hold your breath though.
Russian state media have dismissed the horrifying images and testimonies that emerged from Bucha as Western orchestrated “fakes” and “planned provocations,” claiming “Ukrainian Nazis” were responsible for the deaths of the civilians.
“A flagrantly brutal provocation by Ukrainian Nazis,” said Olga Skabeeva, host of the widely watched state media talk show 60 Minute on Monday.
“Zelenskiy and the so-called civilized West is attempting to create a hybrid, fake version of Srebrenica.”
Vladimir Solovyov, the Western sanctioned popular state presenter on his Sunday night talk show said that the killings were planned by Britain.
“The war against Russia entered a new phase today. Very soon they’ll accuse us of genocide. To all appearances this whole provocation was plotted by the British,” Solovyov said.
Exactly the same stuff happened when Russia annexed Abkhazia from Georgia. No action was taken then and no action will be taken now. Just in case anyone was wondering, Ukrainians have already identified which division was occupying Bucha and who its general was. No surprises for guessing it was the Chechens. Some of the women had large swastikas burnt onto their stomachs, probably while being tortured before being killed. What probably isn't being publicised outside of Ukraine is that the Russians haven't just been aiming at women and children. Zoos, animal sanctuaries, stables and kennels have all been targeted. Dogs hung up by chains, animals slaughtered left right and centre or left locked up to starve to death. Cemeteries have been bombed including the largest in Chernihiv. Probably thought that Zelensky was handing out rifles to the dead as well.It's BEYOND depressing what's happening in Bucha. I literally feel sick. Is West gonna do SHIT? It just feels like all talk and no one actually wants to get out of their comfy little bubble. This kind of approach is only going to make things worse in the long run.