The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

KindaCool said:
Yes that's what I'm talking about too. Let me rephrase it: "I know IT WOULD BE NICE TO BELIEVE that Hamas is genuinely fighting for Palestinians' living standards, but they're not." It wasn't an accusation. My point was defend whatever side you want, just know WHAT you're defending.
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Sorry to keep LABOURING THE POINT, but okay, where has anyone on moopy suggested that we would like to believe that Hamas is fighting for Palestian's living standards?

I'm just not understanding what you were trying to say, given that it was quite a loaded, baiting statement.

For the record, many people on here have said that they believe Hamas did not and does not have Palestinian interests at heart before, during and after October 7th - myself included.
 
joanne said:
the article is behind a pay wall @COB

also "in private encounters" girl these are ethnic cleansings allegations, the tea needs to be hotter than this lukewarm rooibos.
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You can log in with Google, Apple and several other services for free and you'll be able to read it! It's also one of the papers of record of the United States, please tell me you're not trying to say it isn't a reliable source?
 
joanne said:
if Israel is trialed by the ICC, what will determine whether it's genocide or not is intent - not some passive-aggressive queens on an online forum (me, i'm the passive-aggressive queen on an online forum).

for it to be considered a genocide by the ICC, it will have to be proven that a certain amount of key officials have expressed the intent of ethnically cleansing Gazans. they will go through all orders and documents to verify this.

for all intents and purposes..

genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun

  1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
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I mean it's never a great look when your quibbling over the dictionary definition of something. You've essentially already admitted that the criteria other than intent has been met so seems a strange hill to die on wether his destruction of a nation or group was intentional.
 
joanne said:
if Israel is trialed by the ICC, what will determine whether it's genocide or not is intent - not some passive-aggressive queens on an online forum (me, i'm the passive-aggressive queen on an online forum).

for it to be considered a genocide by the ICC, it will have to be proven that a certain amount of key officials have expressed the intent of ethnically cleansing Gazans. they will go through all orders and documents to verify this.

for all intents and purposes..

genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun

  1. the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
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I get that somewhere, one day, the powers that be will have a formal conversation in some stuffy auditorium that will play over for days on whether this was genocide or not, and ultimately nothing will happen anyway.

I don't think the discussion on whether it's technically/factually/officially genocide should detract from the fact that what Netenyhau and his army are doing is absolutely fucking appalling, one of the worst and most damaging military operations to happen since WW2, and has done more to weaken the status quo of the Middle East than anything in my living memory.
 
South Africa's submission to the ICJ has three full pages of direct quotes from Israeli officials demonstrating intent re: ethnic cleansing, unless I'm mistaken.
 
Funky said:
Sorry to keep LABOURING THE POINT, but okay, where has anyone on moopy suggested that we would like to believe that Hamas is fighting for Palestian's living standards?

I'm just not understanding what you were trying to say, given that it was quite a loaded, baiting statement.

For the record, many people on here have said that they believe Hamas did not and does not have Palestinian interests at heart before, during and after October 7th - myself included.
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No I get you. Was probably poorly worded but I'm saying it as a hypothetical scenario. It would be nice if Hamas' ONLY goal was to bring good living standards and welfare to the Palestinian people. If living standards were truly the core prerequisite for stability in the area (which someone DID suggest) then the problem would imaginably be much easier to solve. But that is simply giving Hamas too much credit. They are a part of a much larger effort to exert political domination over the Middle East.
 
I hear you, but I don't think Hamas' aim, at least in this particular scenario, was to exert domination, it was to create chaos. They knew what Israel was going to do in response. They probably didn't expect it to this extent, but here we are.
 
On the meaning of intent as it pertains to the ICC, that language is usually what distinguishes between manslaughter and murder in a regular trial.

If someone burned down a house to kill their violent partner, they might want to plea manslaughter and they might get away with it. If however the house contained the entire partner's family (oh well!) then that person is going to jail for a long time.

That would be MY anology of Netenyahu's 'intent'.
 
Funky said:
I hear you, but I don't think Hamas' aim, at least in this particular scenario, was to exert domination, it was to create chaos. They knew what Israel was going to do in response. They probably didn't expect it to this extent, but here we are.
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Not theirs, but Iran's. Iran cannot risk political normalcy between Israel and Saudi Arabia/Sunni powers. Neutrality is not enough. The two MUST continue to be enemies if Iran hopes to maximize, and expand, its influence over the Middle East. Hamas was just a willing antisemitic pawn who would also benefit from that and therefore very easy for Iran to continue funding/influencing.
 
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According to news reports, in July 2022, over 15,000 expatriates returned to the Gaza Strip for the feast of Eid al-Adha. They were excited to visit and reported that the markets were full with plenty of livestock for the festival. There seems to be an awful lot of traffic for a prison!
In a prison, people might try to leave, but it is usually not possible; and if they do, do they return to visit?

On September 19, 2023, Palestinian TV broadcast a program called Emigration from Gaza, which claimed that in the past 15 years, about a quarter of a million young Gazans had left for abroad.

The bottleneck that has prevented more people from leaving is Hamas bureaucracy and the hesitancy of other countries to accept them.
 
KindaCool said:
Not theirs, but Iran's. Iran cannot risk political normalcy between Israel and Saudi Arabia/Sunni powers. Neutrality is not enough. The two MUST continue to be enemies if Iran hopes to maximize, and expand, its influence over the Middle East. Hamas was just a willing antisemitic pawn who would also benefit from that and therefore very easy for Iran to continue funding/influencing.
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This was already stated from the beginning of this war and you’re right about it and about the whole geopolitical aspect, but the point is that the incentive to support Hamas or any other extremist movement would decrease with better living conditions for the Palestinians, in their own free state.
 
And of course both sides are guilty of not imporiving the living conditions for the Palestininas. Almost a century has passed since the creation of Israel, still millions of Palestinians have retained their refugee status not only in neighbouring countries but within Palestine itself too. They could have easily been absorbed within the Arab socities they live in*, at least in Palestine but instead they still live in refugee camps and their status is upheld to be used as a political pawn.

*Compare that to tens of millions of displaced Germans, Russians, Poles, Turks, Greeks, Armenians (to name a few) after the two world wars.
 
Funky said:
I get that somewhere, one day, the powers that be will have a formal conversation in some stuffy auditorium that will play over for days on whether this was genocide or not, and ultimately nothing will happen anyway.

I don't think the discussion on whether it's technically/factually/officially genocide should detract from the fact that what Netenyhau and his army are doing is absolutely fucking appalling, one of the worst and most damaging military operations to happen since WW2, and has done more to weaken the status quo of the Middle East than anything in my living memory.
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i agree with you. this war is appalling.

what characterizes the evilness of this war, however, is not only Israel bombing Gaza, but Hamas using Gazans as human shields while hiding like rats in tunnels.

this is not a "normal" war and anyone who believes its a normal war and expects Israel to play by the "war book" simply doesn't understand Hamas.
 


disclosure: i'm not aware of prior debunked tweets this guy has tweeted before.

this graph is relevant to the genocide discourse.
 
That graph only goes up to 2020, what would it look like if 2023 and 2024 were included? Also here's some precedent established during the Srebrenica genocide trials that you might find relevant:

1000033483.png
 
of course the girlies are getting bothered when pro-Israel narratives are added to the discussion.

when is Moopy adding the Palestine flag to the banner?
mariah-carey-smile.gif
 
I mean we can all say whatever we like with a bit of stan language and a diva gif when we have no counterpoints or rebuttals.

Anyway, here's an IDF soldier going through a woman's underwear drawer in Gaza and voluntarily posting it online:
 
Hospitals in Gaza are still incredibly unsafe, to the point that MSF are having to pull out:


 
COB said:
I mean we can all say whatever we like with a bit of stan language and a diva gif when we have no counterpoints or rebuttals.
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we can also rebuttal with "you're embarrassing yourself," "you literally cannot be serious" and "you need to get a grip."
 
joanne said:
we can also rebuttal with "you're embarrassing yourself," "you literally cannot be serious" and "you need to get a grip."
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I mean. You don't understand that 2023 is after 2020. What's the point?

Or you do and you're arguing in bad faith, in which case, what's the point?
 
The use of the term genocide to describe Israel’s self-defense campaign is inaccurate, misleading, and ridiculous.
[BGCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Those who claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza not only misunderstand the legal definition of genocide and what the laws of war permit; they also base the charge on unsubstantiated claims.[/BGCOLOR]
 
We'll see what the court says, I suppose? Because that will give us a definitive verdict either way.

In that meantime though @Shaib, genocide or not what do you call the slaughter of more than 20,000 people within a couple of months? What does it make you feel?
 
Shaib said:
The use of the term genocide to describe Israel’s self-defense campaign is inaccurate, misleading, and ridiculous.
[BGCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Those who claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza not only misunderstand the legal definition of genocide and what the laws of war permit; they also base the charge on unsubstantiated claims.[/BGCOLOR]
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I think when people look at what Israel is doing as “self defence” then it’s possible to understand how far apart in the ethics of war we are on this matter. It doesn’t really matter whether it’s Israel or Russia or China or anyone, bombing hospitals and refugee camps is not self defence to me in any scenario, any strategy, any reasoning, any argument.

Again arguing about one word just seems futile to me. Thousands of people are starving and Israel just keeps bombing them.
 
Shaib said:
The use of the term genocide to describe Israel’s self-defense campaign is inaccurate, misleading, and ridiculous.
[BGCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Those who claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza not only misunderstand the legal definition of genocide and what the laws of war permit; they also base the charge on unsubstantiated claims.[/BGCOLOR]
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all of this.
 
I'll ask you the same question I asked Shaib, @joanne:
COB said:
In that meantime though @Shaib, genocide or not what do you call the slaughter of more than 20,000 people within a couple of months? What does it make you feel?
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I'm not trying to do a gotcha or anything here, I genuinely want to know. Do you honestly feel that all of those lives lost are justified?
 
^ it's not worth engaging babes. the arguments being made, battling over the semantics of genocide, claiming that any and all criticism of an extremist government hell bent on war and destruction are "anti-semitic", are purely in bad faith. there will be no acceptance of Israel having done anything wrong or having done anything other than "protect itself" so don't bother.
 
COB said:
I'll ask you the same question I asked Shaib, @joanne:

I'm not trying to do a gotcha or anything here, I genuinely want to know. Do you honestly feel that all of those lives lost are justified?
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war is heartbreaking, it's excruciating. i have wept countless times at the sight of clips of fathers and mothers crying over their lost children. many of the images that pop up in my feed shatter my heart, and i can only imagine the deep grief and sadness the people who are a part of this war feel.

the idea that we pro-Israelis are some kind of heartless racists is outrageous.

do i feel that those lives lost are "justified"? it feels like a trick question. on the one hand, i don't want any lives to be lost. including Hamas lives, i deep inside hope that they would "change their minds" and believe in peace. but that's not the situation Israel is in right now. these terrorists want to wipe out Israel for once and for all and they need to be pushed to the curb. the fact that many innocent civilians, many of whom even hate Hamas, are having to face Israel's rage is saddening.

but like i said, war is heartbreaking.

what's also heartbreaking is antisemitism making a Hitleresque comeback, not only in European streets and in the Arab world, but also online.. like.. here..
 
Hamas does not have the capability to wipe out Israel once and for all. Israel on the other hand has the capability to wipe out Gaza.

It would help to not look at Israel as some frightened kitten being forced to lash out in any way necessary to save itself. It would also help not to see the war in the traditional sense of two Government states fighting for land or sovereignty. That is so far away from what is actually happening.
 
intent is key.

Hamas intends to wipe out all of Israel. that's their whole political agenda.

Israel does not intend on wiping out Gaza.
 
I appreciate your post joanne, we may disagree on a lot but at least we can agree that it's heartbreaking.
 
joanne said:
what's also heartbreaking is antisemitism making a Hitleresque comeback, not only in European streets and in the Arab world, but also online.. like.. here..
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Regarding this point in particular, please report any posts you think violate the rules stated in the first post of this topic.
 
Well I guess that’s where we’re so far apart.

Hamas does not intend to wipe out Israel because it literally can’t. It is its intent to attack, damage, limit, weaken and undermine Israel.

Israel IS wiping out Gaza. When you think of the term wiping out a country, what is it if it’s not systematically bombing every corner of it with the people still on the ground?
 
joanne said:
intent is key.

Hamas intends to wipe out all of Israel. that's their whole political agenda.

Israel does not intend on wiping out Gaza.
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The sad thing is that both (Israeli government and Hamas, not the people of either) intend to wipe out the either, even if the people might not agree. But Israel is the one that has the actual capability to do it
 
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