Well then what would be better? People living or dying isn't cosmetic or futile. Again, I didn't say it would fix everything, but it is the prerequisite to any actual plan
The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions
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ZenGiraffe
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Y'all need to calm down. From a geopolitical perspective, improving the living standards won't do shit for the resolution of this conflict. This conflict is not happening because of people's living standards. You're giving both sides WAY too much credit. This conflict is happening because of longstanding internal ethnic competition within the Middle East (Israel and Jews being seen as illegitimate; Iran vs Saudi Arabia/cultural and religious domination; radicalism) AND because of the unwelcomed influence of external powers (USA, Europe, Russia + probably even China).
The resolution of THESE issues are the prerequisite for stability in the area, not the living standards of the general population. This is global and regional macropolitics, not a local protest. Consolidating power and expanding territory is what these parties are playing for and until one of the parties gets it, they will continue to fight.
Sorry if this disappoints you, but if the Palestinian people suddenly received healthcare, education, shelter and food security right now, Hamas is NOT going to humbly put their weapons down and say "Thanks hun, that's all we wanted." The population's living standards is NOT Hamas' ultimate goal or ANYONE'S ultimate goal in the Middle East. I know you guys want Hamas to be 'saviors' and 'defenders' of Palestine, but they're not.
The resolution of THESE issues are the prerequisite for stability in the area, not the living standards of the general population. This is global and regional macropolitics, not a local protest. Consolidating power and expanding territory is what these parties are playing for and until one of the parties gets it, they will continue to fight.
Sorry if this disappoints you, but if the Palestinian people suddenly received healthcare, education, shelter and food security right now, Hamas is NOT going to humbly put their weapons down and say "Thanks hun, that's all we wanted." The population's living standards is NOT Hamas' ultimate goal or ANYONE'S ultimate goal in the Middle East. I know you guys want Hamas to be 'saviors' and 'defenders' of Palestine, but they're not.
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joanne
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if it's an "open-air prison" then why do thousands of Palestinians with European passports choose to leave the first world and move to the so-called "open-air prison"?
First of all, I'd rather not be talked to like I'm a naive idiot.
I don't have a solution for Israel/Gaza, and I don't think anyone else has a realistic one either, but people living or dying is important, is a human right, and is the most pressing issue at the moment. I highly doubt anyone here thinks that Hamas is the savior or defender of the Palestinians, and I'm not disappointed, I'm nervous about the literal lives of the people involved and its impact on the rest of the world
I don't have a solution for Israel/Gaza, and I don't think anyone else has a realistic one either, but people living or dying is important, is a human right, and is the most pressing issue at the moment. I highly doubt anyone here thinks that Hamas is the savior or defender of the Palestinians, and I'm not disappointed, I'm nervous about the literal lives of the people involved and its impact on the rest of the world
ZenGiraffe
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Just because you put things in quotation marks doesn't make them any less true.
It's an open air prison, it's ethnic cleansing, and it's an ethnostate.
ZenGiraffe
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Let's not do this.
Definitely not the intention and apologies if I sounded patronizing.
For US, yes it is. But I've said this before, this kind of moral litigation is absolutely futile on the geopolitical arena. This conflict involves the highest possible powers on the planet. They have the influence and resources to wipe entire populations from the earth. There IS no real tangible authority above them. Abstract moral standards and arbitrary so-called "ethics" lose all authority on the global level. History shows us that time and time again.
Jark
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yes. there's just so much migration INTO Gaza/Palestinian territories! you nailed it, the Palestians with European passports do totally disprove the "genocide happening right now" theory. wow I love this analysis.
ZenGiraffe
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You do understand that governments are beholden to their citizens right? In democracies that's elections, but even in dictatorships they can and do crumble if they piss the wrong people off. Geopolitics is still affected by national politics
Thank you!
UNTIL the people ACTUALLY organize and PHYSICALLY exert influence and MAKE it crumble (riots, revolutions etc), governments are beholden to their citizens only abstractly; in theory; by social agreement. Not by any real tangible force or authority. When dictators massacre entire towns, the universe doesn't come down, deduct 10 years from their life, and send them to Human Rights 101. To the universe, such standards are nothing but fiction. The only authority higher than terrorists, conquerors and dictators are...well, more powerful terrorists, conquerors and dictators.
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joanne
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the girls are dismissing, twisting, and making fun of this question, but not actually answering it.
joanne
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this.
the girls in this thread are SO out-of-touch with what Hamas and the majority of Palestinians want.
hint: they want all of the Jews to leave.
funky
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I just saw this. WWWHAT?
joanne
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why are you SO ANGRY?
you clearly shouldn't be taking part in this discussion if the topic is so sensitive to you.
ZenGiraffe
This is vulgar, but I love it
Emphasis, darling, not anger.
joanne
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ok, sorry. i must have misread what with the caps.
it's an "open air prison" because terrorists (literally terrorists) govern it.
it's not an ethnic cleansing because ethnic cleansing and genocide entail INTENT, and Israel intends on terminating Hamas, not Gazans. the belief that Israel INTENDS to kill all Gazans is antisemitic.
it is an ethnostate because Jews have been slaughtered in Europe and oppressed in the Middle East forever and have not had a home to flee from antisemitism until 1948.
the Holocaust, and the current disgusting wave of vile antisemitism, only reaffirm how important it is for the Jews to have their own state.
And how many times must others point out that some of us aren't "defending" or "criticizing" EITHER? If I criticize your understanding of Hamas and their geopolitical strategy, I'm not "defending" Israel by extension, and vice-versa.
Not everyone is interested in expressing online outrage and playing the blame game, because it's futile and ARBITRARY.
ZenGiraffe
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It is an open air prison because Gazans can not freely leave and there is literally a fence round it.
It is ethnic cleansing because state actors, including Netanyahu and the Israeli ambassador to the UK, have stated their intentions such. It is not antisemitism to say Israel intends to kill or remove all Gazans, it is repeating Israel's stated policy goal.
Glad we agree that it is an ethnostate though.
It is ethnic cleansing because state actors, including Netanyahu and the Israeli ambassador to the UK, have stated their intentions such. It is not antisemitism to say Israel intends to kill or remove all Gazans, it is repeating Israel's stated policy goal.
Glad we agree that it is an ethnostate though.
Kratz
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I do think it is important acknowledge that, from some quarters, the criticism of Israel is in part driven by anti-semitism (you don’t have to look hard online to find it). The same individuals don’t come anywhere close to the same amount of criticism of Myanmar or China in the conflict they are engaging with their Muslim populations.
funky
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I refer you to your earlier point that I quoted, which contradicts your point now.
joanne
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when Gazans freely "left" they slaughtered 1,200 Israelis. that's why there's a fence.
where did Netanyahu express intent to ethnically cleanse all Gazans? i wanna see the receipts. as far as my knowledge goes, SOME Israeli officials have and they will eventually be trialed.
funky
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I agree you don’t have to look hard to find it, but I’d also argue that’s it pretty easy to distinguish between criticism of the Israeli government and crisiticism of Israel, Jews or Judaism.
The blanket and default accusations of anti-semitism aren't helpful; I'd even go so far as to say they undermine any pro-Israel rhetoric.
ZenGiraffe
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Ahh, so all Gazans are Hamas are they? If I was so flippant about Israeli's or Jews you'd be the first to criticise me.
joanne
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it's easy to conflate the two because the majority of Gazans support Hamas.
also majority of Gazans believe what Hamas did was "right" according to polls.
ZenGiraffe
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Yeah nah it doesn't. I said that in the context of the discussion about living standards. It was not said as an accusation, but as a benefit of the doubt. Joanne just took it there.
"Defend" whichever side happens to appease your conscience, but the fact remains that the Palestinian people's well-being is NOT Hamas' ultimate goal, or that of any major player in Middle Eastern politics.
funky
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Netenyahu doesn't need to go on record and state he's ethnically cleansing Gaza. I don't recall any regime in the modern era that has ever caused mass casualties of innocent people to call it anything other than a military operation. The deaths and the bombings and the starvation and the disease and the horrors in general are the receipts.
Saying some officials are guilty and will be trialled feels awfully dismissive of what is an unprecedented act of military might on an enormous group of innocent civilians.
funky
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I'm talking about you saying suggesting that "you guys" (moopy posters) want Hamas to be the saviours of Palestine. There isn't a single post on moopy that has ever suggested this to be the case.
funky
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It fascinates me that people geniunely believe this. Like the propaganda REALLY is working.
joanne
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if Israel is trialed by the ICC, what will determine whether it's genocide or not is intent - not some passive-aggressive queens on an online forum (me, i'm the passive-aggressive queen on an online forum).
for it to be considered a genocide by the ICC, it will have to be proven that a certain amount of key officials have expressed the intent of ethnically cleansing Gazans. they will go through all orders and documents to verify this.
for all intents and purposes..
genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun
- the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
joanne
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Reuters reported it coming from "a respected Palestinian polling institute."
C
COB
Guest
Here's a Washington Post reporter:
And the full story as published in the paper here:
Yes that's what I'm talking about too. Let me rephrase it: "I know IT WOULD BE NICE TO BELIEVE that Hamas is genuinely fighting for Palestinians' living standards, but they're not." It wasn't an accusation. My point was defend whatever side you want, just know WHAT you're defending.