UK General Election 2024 - July 4th (1 Viewer)

How are you likely to vote?

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dmlaw said:
I don’t think there’s any need at all for you to sit this one out. You’re making a lot of sense that screaming TERF at someone with mild tendencies is going to do nothing other than radicalise them.
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I suppose as well as that, yes, for all the slagging off of Labour we tend to do for being little different from the Tories that site seems to put me 67% in their favour which somehow feels a bit dirty lol
 
Cloud said:
You know what, I agree. I actually liked that response. He's still a bit too black and white on the biology for my liking and I still don't like that it's a debate at all (just let them be for fuck's sake) but at least he's sympathetic and respectful and it does put my mind at ease that he's not too likely to go down the Rowling "sneer at and bully all the trans people" route.

And the comments of bringing people together warm my heart. I'm sick of the fighting too, I'm sick of (more a Twitter thing) "so-and-so is an irredeemable piece of shit who's life should be made miserable because they have a bad opinion on this one issue". Admittedly often the vocal ones ARE horrible in other ways and cosy up to the far right but... maybe not always?
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I agree that it is nice to have a potential Prime Minister speak in a way that doesn’t dehumanise trans people - but it is depressing that that is the bar to clear at this stage. However, I think it comes down to what he does in office - polite transphobia is still transphobia - and perhaps even more insidious than overt transphobia, to be honest. In recent days, Labour have been positing positions in terms of health that mirror exactly what the Conservatives were proposing in terms of treating trans patients in separate rooms (they actually arguably go one further in the sense that the Conservative’s proposal is framed as being subject to request by another patient).

I also get the principle of bringing everyone into the tent but the problem there is that the most hardened transphobes are beyond the point of compromise - they will not be happy until trans people essentially do not exist, in the same way that anti immigration bigots won’t be happy until they see zero black and brown faces on the street or on our screens. There is no point trying to appease these people because their ultimate barometer of you having succeeded is impossible to deliver. Rowling is attacking Starmer in the media only today despite his efforts to appease the TERFs.

I do agree that you shouldn’t jump on people dipping their toe into the pool of transphobia - I think people are right in the sense that it is likely to radicalise them. I think it is also easy to fall into the trap of “oh, they are all as bad as each other!” when you look at both sides of the so-called ‘trans debate.’ As frustrating and annoying as I find some on my side of the argument to be, it is worth remembering that one side is a group fighting for their rights and ability to participate in public life, and the other is a group opposing that, some to the point of grotesque obsession.

I must say - i’ve found some of the response to this in this thread a bit surprising. I don’t think anyone here would be applauding a sensible ‘both sides’ response on gay rights, or the rights of racial minorities.
 
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Tetris-Rock said:
I also get the principle of bringing everyone into the tent but the problem there is that the most hardened transphobes are beyond the point of compromise - they will not be happy until trans people essentially do not exist, in the same way that anti immigration bigots won’t be happy until they see zero black and brown faces on the street or on our screens. There is no point trying to appease these people because their ultimate barometer of you having succeeded is impossible to deliver. Rowling is attacking Starmer in the media only today despite his efforts to appease the TERFs.
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I think this is the key. The media has spent 15 years platforming extremism to get clicks and the result is a group of very very noisy people who just want extermination. It has been really disappointing to see Labour adopt Tory policy that was previously UKIP, even BNP policy because they're afraid they won;t win otherwise. There's no debating some people but those people get the front page of the Times if they're rich enough. They need to be seen for what they are and taken out of the conversation.
 
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The Greens have sent me a leaflet for the wrong candidate. I’m very close to the constituency boundary, but it still doesn’t say much for their attention to detail.
 
All the local Greens do their own campaigning independently with very few exceptions. Seems to be totally luck of the draw if you get a competent or clueless one.

Have now had 16 Labour leaflets and counting and about 10 Tory (all Green). So much recycling.
 
We've had one Labour leaflet. That's it.

Mr L has told me he's definitely voting Labour. I think that's enough to convince me to go Green. One each from this house feels about right.
 
I've had two Labour leaflets and one reform. The Reform one wasn't even trying, it was a generic national one with an edit box saying "your local candidate is xxx" (he's not even local, he lives 150 miles away)
 
Tetris-Rock said:
I agree that it is nice to have a potential Prime Minister speak in a way that doesn’t dehumanise trans people - but it is depressing that that is the bar to clear at this stage. However, I think it comes down to what he does in office - polite transphobia is still transphobia - and perhaps even more insidious than overt transphobia, to be honest. In recent days, Labour have been positing positions in terms of health that mirror exactly what the Conservatives were proposing in terms of treating trans patients in separate rooms (they actually arguably go one further in the sense that the Conservative’s proposal is framed as being subject to request by another patient).

I also get the principle of bringing everyone into the tent but the problem there is that the most hardened transphobes are beyond the point of compromise - they will not be happy until trans people essentially do not exist, in the same way that anti immigration bigots won’t be happy until they see zero black and brown faces on the street or on our screens. There is no point trying to appease these people because their ultimate barometer of you having succeeded is impossible to deliver. Rowling is attacking Starmer in the media only today despite his efforts to appease the TERFs.

I do agree that you shouldn’t jump on people dipping their toe into the pool of transphobia - I think people are right in the sense that it is likely to radicalise them. I think it is also easy to fall into the trap of “oh, they are all as bad as each other!” when you look at both sides of the so-called ‘trans debate.’ As frustrating and annoying as I find some on my side of the argument to be, it is worth remembering that one side is a group fighting for their rights and ability to participate in public life, and the other is a group opposing that, some to the point of grotesque obsession.

I must say - i’ve found some of the response to this in this thread a bit surprising. I don’t think anyone here would be applauding a sensible ‘both sides’ response on gay rights, or the rights of racial minorities.
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I'm basically in agreement. Please don't assume I'm trying to both-sides-ify it or turn on anyone, I will always be on the side of protecting those I care about and a good handful of them (comes with furry, brony and VR territories) are trans. In essence I'm thinking out loud, whether the thoughts are pretty or ugly, but they're not conclusions - they're thoughts. To be honest I think the only conclusion I'll ever come to is my own death (I don't intend it to be any time soon)

Thing is I do think bringing people together is a good thing. Totally understand that one side is fighting for the right to exist and the other against it which is why I'm on the former side. But god, I dunno, so much of "wahhh they'll take our bathrooms" and other shite is created from fear. I'd love for some particularly on the fence region to actually meet and have a real face to face, calm discussion with actual real life trans people (not the bogeypeople they imagined) and hopefully realise the kind and gentle human beings they're dealing with. That means no one shouting personal attacks at each other, from either side. It might.. honestly.. mean not shouting TERF at anyone who seems worried about women's changing rooms, not at first. (Shout it at Rowling all you like, she's too far gone)

I'm sorry if it's disappointing or seems like a betrayal but in my heart it's not, it's completely on your side and wanting to be productive.


On the gay side maybe I would indeed say similar. I have an extremely religious friend. When I said I was bi and got a boyfriend, he was respectful and happy for me... and also felt duty bound to say he's worried about me because in his world (psst, sadly a bit brainwashed, but also strongly autistic which I make a lot of passes for him out of) it's something the creator frowns upon. Because he cares about me and doesn't want to see me burning. I don't know, some would RAGE at that, I was just glad to be cared about. I told him not to worry, I don't believe the same thing he does and as far as I'm concerned I'll be fine. Thank you very much but my beliefs are different.
He said "okay I just had to say that once I'll not being it up again", he didn't, and we're still good friends.
 
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The sheer LENGTH of his controversies section on Wikipedia! You will not believe how far you have to scroll to get to the rentboy incident!
 
I've had multiple Labour leaflets, despite having a Labour poster in our window. One Tory one with the terrible celebrity candidate, who has managed literally zero impact on the campaign. My area is full on Labour. The north of the city is full on Lib Dem. I've only seen one Tory poster in a monied village.

The horrifying thing when we you drive west out the city, you hit Priti Patel land and there are full on street signs with her mug on it, like it's a WELCOME TO MY EVIL LAYER sign, when in fact you're entering Witham.

I work at a school in her constituency and she's a remarkably popular local MP. It defies logic.
 
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