House of the Dragon (GoT Prequel)

I need to understand why it takes two years to film EIGHT EPISODES!

see y’all in 2026 :rolleyes:
 
Well if you say it like that :D

A lot of stories come full circle like that, I thought they at least handled it well in the end and you believed he really was shook by the visions. I imagine the GoT throwbacks will have excited a lot of the nerds too.
 
Pffft. That should have been episode 4 with the next 8 that will air in 2 years presumably being the next 4. Actually, I've read things were taken out to leave for next season, so do expect more, but what a bizarre thing to do, this was a drip feed of a series and I simply couldn't recommend it. Anyways, I'll be be watching season 3 after the finale as this was not event TV. I give it a 7/10 with caution.
 
That was a pile of shit. What was the point of the lesbian kiss two or three episodes ago? Also why did we need a 20 minute b-story out of nowhere in the finale with the Lannister and the lady pirate?
 
Oh I always love a trip to the silly goose continent Essos, and I appreciate the addition of a polyamorous lesbian Admiral, but they could’ve easily waited until next season to introduce her.
 
The entire shipyard looking like the cheap Querelle (1982) set always put a smirk on my face. Sadly no giant penis statues, etc.
 
What utter pants. Is this a massive ploy to trick us into reading books?
 
Dunc & Egg is a very popular story in the entire lore as it goes, not that I’ve read it myself.

They will do themselves a favour when they finally write something that isn’t written first hand from George R R Martin. They need to test themselves with the source material, and they need to do something that the part of the fan base doesn’t already know the ending of.
 
How will the new show not spoil the ending of House of Dragon?

I’m most excited by the animated show that is being set in the far east of the world. I don’t need to see anything else set in Westeros.
 
Lucille said:
How will the new show not spoil the ending of House of Dragon?

I’m most excited by the animated show that is being set in the far east of the world. I don’t need to see anything else set in Westeros.
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But the ending has already been published and known for 6 years now :D You can read how it ends now (obvs don't click if you're avoiding spoilers as the conclusion is stated in the first paragraph) if you want to

Though I do think the new show will just dance (excuse the pun) around too much detail on Targaryens for the first season so not to take too much wind out of Season 3 HoTD's momentum. I haven't read the book yet but as far as I understand they're just light hearted stories/adventures of a knight.
 
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Lucille said:
Oh I know the ending has been out there for years! But I still have been actively avoiding it!
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I wish I didn't know, I might enjoy the show more than I have been so far. It's looking like HBO will be turning the A Song of Fire and Ice universe into a MCU type affair so I imagine each property will be mindful and careful to not step on the toes of the others.

The original success of Game of Thrones and now the follow-up success of House of the Dragon has caused HBO and George RR Martin to start developing essentially every possible concept for spin-offs, almost all of them prequels.

Now, we have an update from the man himself. In addition to the currently airing House of the Dragon and the soon-to-arrive A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, George RR Martin recently said at the Oxford Writers' House that there are currently seven Thrones spin-offs in development. Four of them are animated, and three of them are live action.

We believe we know four of these projects, Aegon the Conqueror as Ten Thousand Ships as possible live-action entries and The Golden Empire and Sea Snake as possible animated ones, but whether that's still the plan is unclear. Martin previously seemed to say two of four animated shows were scrapped, but that may have now changed.

It certainly does not seem likely that all of these will make it to release, and many show concepts have been scrapped, including a Jon Snow sequel series and another that even went so far as to film a pilot. HBO, for all Warner Bros. Discovery's other problems, seems determined to keep the quality bar high for the brand as they are eternally trying to redeem themselves for the end of Thrones in season 8. So far, House of the Dragon seems to be satisfying that. I believe that show has one more season in it after this.
www.forbes.com

After ‘House Of The Dragon,’ George RR Martin Says There Are 7 Thrones Shows In Development

The success of House of the Dragon has caused HBO and George RR Martin to start developing essentially every possible concept for spin-offs
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
I wasn’t buzzed about House of Dragon but I have loved it despite the lacklustre ending of season 2, so I’m not mad about several spin-offs, it’s like all the versions of drag race, I don’t watch them all but I’m glad they’re there!
 
I was watching this clip and it struck me that House of The Dragon really gives the impression that dragons need a constant rider in order to "operate" or be of use at all. Where as Dany has three dragons that she seems able to master/command from the ground or on one :D
 
I think it's less 'rider' (which to be fair is what they reference throughout) and more 'owner' - Dany was the owner of the dragons from birth and were always connected to her (well until Jon stole one and the other one got prodded by an ice zombie) whereas the two in the caves in HotD were lost because their previous owners died.

There are also wild dragons in HotD which fly freely without an owner. The crucial part is once they are owned they will take sides. That's why everyone is keen to find a rider for the dragons without one.
 
It's like with cars; self-driving technology only needs about 200 years to develop.
 
Messy ol George just can't stop sharing his dissatisfaction with S2:

https://www.avclub.com/hbo-not-surprised-george-r-r-martin-house-of-the-dragon

The DRAMATICS:

My various television projects ate up most of those months. Some of that was pleasant (DARK WINDS, and THE HEDGE KNIGHT), most of it was not. The stress kept mounting, the news went from bad to worse to worst, my mood seemed to swing between fury and despair, and at night I tossed and turned when I should have been sleeping. When I did sleep, well, my dreams were none too pleasant either.
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:D

no wonder he can't finish the books - he's just SO BUSY having VIOLENT nightmares about extremely minor characters who were removed or glossed over in the adaptation of this one so-so story from page to screen.
 
Lucille said:
The AUDACITÉ of him to critique the writing of this show when he’s obviously not even started the book he’s been pretending to write for 20 years!
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That’s very unfair. He’s only been pretending to write it for FOURTEEN years.
 
He had a DRAMATIC blog post that HBO had him take down because he essentially teases that season 3 and season 4 will just get even worse than season 2 if the showrunners keep to their plans. There are minor spoilers in the first half and big spoilers about season 3 and 4 from the part I've bolded/made large.

Back in July, I promised you some further thoughts about Blood and Cheese… and Maelor the Missing… after my commentary on the first two episodes of HotD season 2, “A Son for a Son” and “Rhaenyra the Cruel.”

Those were terrific episodes: well written, well directed, powerfully acted. A great way to kick off the new season. Fans and critics alike seemed to agree. There was only one aspect of the episodes that drew significant criticism: the handling of Blood and Cheese, and the death of Prince Jaehaerys. From the commentary I saw on line, opinion was split there. The readers of FIRE & BLOOD found the sequence underwhelming, a disappointment, watered down from what they were expecting. Viewers who had not read the book had no such problems. Most of them found the sequence a real gut-punch, tragic, horrifying, nightmarish, etc. Some reported being reduced to tears.

I found myself agreeing with both sides.

In my book, Aegon and Helaena have three children, not two. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, are six years old. They have a younger brother, Maelor, who is two. When Blood and Cheese break in on Helaena and the kids, they tell her they are debt collectors come to exact revenge for the death of Prince Lucerys: a son for a son. As Helaena has two sons, however, they demand that she choose which one should die. She resists and offers her own life instead, but the killers insist it has to be a son. If she does not name one, they will kill all three of the children. To save the life of the twins, Helaena names Maelor. But Blood kills the older boy, Jaehaerys, instead, while Cheese tells little Maelor that his mother wanted him dead. (Whether the boy is old enough to understand that is not at all certain).

That’s not how it happens on the show. There is no Maelor in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, only the twins (both of whom look younger than six, but I am no sure judge of children’s ages, so I can’t be sure how old they are supposed to be). Blood can’t seem to tell the twins apart, so Helaena is asked to reveal which one is the boy. (You would think a glance up his PJs would reveal that, without involving the mother). Instead of offering her own life to save the kids, Helaena offers them a necklace. Blood and Cheese are not tempted. Blood saws Prince Jaehaerys’s head off. We are spared the sight of that; a sound effect suffices. (In the book, he lops the head off with a sword).

It is a bloody, brutal scene, no doubt. How not? An innocent child is being butchered in front of his mother.

I still believe the scene in the book is stronger. The readers have the right of that. The two killers are crueler in the book. I thought the actors who played the killers on the show were excellent… but the characters are crueler, harder, and more frightening in FIRE & BLOOD. In the show, Blood is a gold cloak. In the book, he is a former gold cloak, stripped of his office for beating a woman to death. Book Blood is the sort of man who might think making a woman choose which of her sons should die is amusing, especially when they double down on the wanton cruelty by murdering the boy she tries to save. Book Cheese is worse too; he does not kick a dog, true, but he does not have a dog, and he’s the one who tells Maelor that his mom wants him head. I would also suggest that Helaena shows more courage, more strength in the book, by offering her own own life to save her son. Offering a piece of jewelry is just not the same.

As I saw it, the “Sophie’s Choice” aspect was the strongest part of the sequence, the darkest, the most visceral. I hated to lose that. And judging from the comments on line, most of the fans seemed to agree.

When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the “Helaena’s Choice” beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.

There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to “spoil” here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The prince’s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.

Most of you know about the Butterfly Effect, I assume.

Yes, there was a movie with that title a few years back. It’s a familiar concept in chaos theory as well. But most science fiction fans were first exposed to the idea in Ray Bradbury’s classic time travel story, “A Sound of Thunder,” wherein a time traveler from the present panics and crushes a butterfly while hunting a T-Rex. When he returns to his own time, he discovers that the world has changed in huge and frightening ways. One dead butterfly has rewritten history. The lesson being that change begets change, and even small and seemingly insignificant alterations to a timeline — or a story — can have a profound effect on all that follows.

Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture King’s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaena’s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to King’s Landing.

Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Storm’s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.

Will any of that appear on the show? Maybe… but I don’t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickard’s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera can’t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegon’s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned — if indeed he has planned anything — but given Maelor’s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.

From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. It’s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at all… but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.

The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelor’s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the “Sophie’s Choice” scene… and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.

In Ryan’s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herself… for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.

And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.

Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of King’s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyra’s command, the commons are quick to believe them. “That night King’s Landing rose in bloody riot,” I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyra’s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherd’s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstone… and her death.

Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but die… but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaena’s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their “murdered” queen. None of that is essential, I suppose… but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.

What will we offer the fans instead, once we’ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegon’s second son. Maelor himself is not essential… but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaena’s suicide, and the riots, well… that’s a considerable loss.

And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4…

GRRM"
 
It’ll work if they take one specific story and mould it into a movie. He was averse to them turning his books into movies but there’s lots of individual stories they could tackle across the mythology

Of course what will actually happen Is theyll realise it needs to be 2 movies, and then a trilogy, and each one will need to be 4 hours long.
 
One has to assume that the movies will be new stories set in the same world and so they should be written to the movie format. The Dunk and Egg stories would probably work better as movies than a TV show, but the ship has clearly sailed on that. I’m not sure there is anything else by Martin that could be the basis for movies, but I’m sure he’d be willing to write them something if it means not working on Winds of Winter.
 
I’ve heard people speculating but based on nothing the film could be based on the DOOM of VALYRIA. Something of that scale would probably lend itself to the BIG SCREEN, but also I thought the whole point of the doom is we don’t KNOW what happened.
 
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