George Floyd and the police brutality debate

[Alla]

The fact that I'm a different race depending in which part of the planet I am, says it all about this stupidity of labelling people.

 

[Phoenix]

The fact that I'm a different race depending in which part of the planet I am, says it all about this stupidity of labelling people.

thank you for solving racism

 

[Cloud]

I'm white and undoubtedly a problem. But goes without saying the event that sparked all this is horrifying, and the anger is understandable. (Though I also feel bad just saying it's "understandable" like I in any way can claim to understand the shit that POC go through especially in the US). (And then I have to ask, why the FUCK am I saying "I" so much? We really are an introspective lot.)

It's a hell of a mess. Either the US wakes up to its problem (something in November would be a VERY GOOD START) or... I don't know what. The scary thing is that Trump may not be removable through democratic means, even if things do go against him.

 

[KC 🦋]

Don't think you're a "problem" just because you're white lol. Nobody's trying to make you feel guilty or expecting you to 'submit'. The world doesn't need anymore White Guilt!
You're aware of yourself and you aren't ignorant and that's most important.

 

[Logic?]

I'm actually kinda proud of how this thread started off with some difficult and slightly heated moments where people were struggling to see eye to eye but managed to come round to a place of listening and trying to understand each other, all in the space of 5 pages. If only the rest of the world was like Moopy.

Anywhere else on the internet it would have turned into a full on slanging match.

I had to take some time away and cool off from the situation and as I said in previous posts I completely get why several of you called out my white folks comments and accept that it doesn't really progress the discussion in a productive way and completely agree with your comments. AND I understand how difficult it is to talk about or learn to have discussions about an issue that is so systemic and insidious. I have those same feelings too. But I will also say over the years I have noticed a huge clique on this website which is unsurprising considering you have all known each other for a long time but if anyone else like Alla, Kindacool (I could go on) said what they said to me I do think a lot of you would have had very different reactions. Forgive me if I'm wrong but octophone only expressed her fuck up when she was informed she just told a poc to piss off in a thread about police brutality and racism.(Thankyou @COB)I apologised sincerely to her because I mean it and didn't want her to feel bad and realise that her comment was probably off hand but it still doesn't make it right. And you guys are ADMIN!


I know Moopy upholds this cut-throat kind of humour and the tagline is "if Moopy offends you speak to your carer" but I feel a few of you take that a little too seriously and in a thread like this I don't think that kind of shit flies. All for the shady tags most of the time but in a time when the world is finally talking about racism more than it has done in yearssssssss...tags like "white posts matter" are not fucking funny to me. To whoever made that tag FUCK YOU CUNT. It's completely undermining the conversation. Genuine honest interactions I've made with posters and I look up and see that and just think what is actually the point? Maybe I did/do overreact, maybe I am too sensitive and like octophone said if I think a lot of this site is too mean I do have options...but at the same time regardless of the race issue in this thread that kinda mentality is just bullshit to me so maybe this isn't the place for me.

I'll be sticking to the music forums from now on and me continuing this discussion is not trying to open up a can of worms. I just wanted to say how I feel.

 

[Logic?]

Okay, this is the salvaged version so, apologies, it ain't as good:


- white people need to understand the level of distrust that exists amongst communities of colour. i have been let down by many white people, including on this forum. (it's also why i don't fully trust leftist movements and class-based organising). you don't need to flagellate yourselves, nor should you complain that you're trying really hard (not when you had to be SCHOOLED in a drag race thread a couple of weeks ago). you don't deserve a gold star. nor should you yearn for our approval. if you're genuine about being anti-racist, know your history, know your shit, be humble and keep divesting yourselves of your privilege

- i think what you should all be thinking about isn't just systemic racism, but the operation of white supremacy, and specifically, whiteness. why is it that we all crave proximity to whiteness? why do we know that our lives will be better the closer we are aligned to it. but more interestingly to me, what is it about whiteness that has you treating yourselves as the repositories of authority, neutrality and knowledge? why is it that you grew up believing that you were the centre, that you were inherently good, and why is that goodness so fragile when disrupted? all i know is that i did not grow up with that kind of messaging. so maybe it doesn't hurt so much when i fuck up and expose my ignorance. or when it does hurt, it's because of my own expectations rather than what i have grown up imbibing from society about myself.
/QUOTE]

.

<3 These points I really really resonate with especially the second one I quoted

 

[jivafox]

I’m loving the K-Pop stans. First they crashed all those snitching police apps, now they’ve obliterated the #whiteouttuesday hashtag

 

[octophone]

Just wanted to say that I've read the recent posts. I'm particularly grateful for @Beverley's words as there is a lot for me to absorb and work through in there.

I do feel assumptions have been made about me and my motivations. I'm protective of Moopy and can react strongly to criticism of it. But, in the scheme of things, Moopy is not even a drop in the ocean; it is barely a molecule. But it has been a lifeline to me during lockdown and that is not an exaggeration.

Anyway, onwards.

 

[win_the_game]

I found this a really good watch:

I’d recommend her book of the same name, ‘White Fragility’. It’s a fairly easy read and a useful place to start in understanding our individual role in constructing and reinforcing the system of racism, but also how to tackle it.

 

[ZenGiraffe]

I’d recommend her book of the same name, ‘White Fragility’. It’s a fairly easy read and a useful place to start in understanding our individual role in constructing and reinforcing the system of racism, but also how to tackle it.

I'm halfway through it now, and it is quite eye opening. I'd recommend as well.

 

[Logic?]

We did say that if tags weren't going to be used responsibly, we would look at it again.

So why arent you taking a look at it?

Seriously some of the tags in here are bullshit. Your admin do I complain to you? There was a jew one that was exposed yesterday too.

Christ for you lot meant to be so cut throat none of you have the balls to just come out and say white posts matter and hide behind a tag? and I get stick for calling out white folks?

What an absolute travesty. You fake woke folk are fucked up.

 

[Logic?]

I infact wont be sticking around even for the music forums. Thanks so much to the people who have genuinely reached out to me about yesterday there is some genuine nice folks here but nahhhhhhhhh I'm done.

 

[octophone]

So why arent you taking a look at it?

Seriously some of the tags in here are bullshit. Your admin do I complain to you? There was a jew one that was exposed yesterday too.

Christ for you lot meant to be so cut throat none of you have the balls to just come out and say white posts matter and hide behind a tag? and I get stick for calling out white folks?

What an absolute travesty. You fake woke folk are fucked up.

Because I'm not the sole owner of Moopy, I am one of a 7-8 person staff team and we are discussing our next move right now. Also, please remember that Moopy is no-one's full time job and we all have other commitments. We are a small, volunteer run, volunteer financed web forum.

The tag that "exposed" yesterday was 2 years old, was investigated, removed and the person contacted.

 

[Logic?]

Because I'm not the sole owner of Moopy, I am one of a 7-8 person staff team and we are discussing our next move right now. Also, please remember that Moopy is no-one's full time job and we all have other commitments. We are a small, volunteer run, volunteer financed web forum.

The tag that "exposed" yesterday was 2 years old, was investigated, removed and the person contacted.

Bullshit. What is their to discuss? I bet it takes 2 minutes to delete that tag. Discuss all you like but I wont be a part of it.

You guys are not doing ANYTHING for anyone but the elite on here and have been the same for years.

It is really not worth my time and energy and I do not want to post somewhere where people like this are around so I'm out. Thankyou for your apology yesterday and despite all of this I know you arent a bad person and didn't mean what you said. But this really is some bullshit

 

[dUb]

Edit: NOT THE TIME REALLY

 

[Suomi]

And to be honest , since we are such a small community, I’d quite like to know who leaves tags like this?

 

[octophone]

Fuck it. Done. All gone.

 

[octophone]

For what it's worth, I did "moopy too white". I left it a few seconds after my original post. I could have deleted it but felt it was abuse of power.

 

[Jark]

Fuck it. Done. All gone.

GOOD!

(now we await the dramatic gay revelation in 2 weeks that behind-the-scenes there's been furious debate among the mods about whether Octy did the right thing because now the offensive taggers cannot be held "accountable")

 

[VoR]

GOOD!

(now we await the dramatic gay revelation in 2 weeks that behind-the-scenes there's been furious debate among the mods about whether Octy did the right thing because now the offensive taggers cannot be held "accountable")

Do you not think it's important that we know?

I'm pleased that the tags have been removed given how upsetting they were, but personally I'm deeply uncomfortable with the perpetrator getting away scot free. If it was a misjudged joke, just fucking own it!

 

[octophone]

(now we await the dramatic gay revelation in 2 weeks that behind-the-scenes there's been furious debate among the mods about whether Octy did the right thing because now the offensive taggers cannot be held "accountable")

Well, my posts show that dilemma. I took the decision to say fuck it, delete the lot and fess up to my one contribution to the tag cloud.

 

[Rita]

NAME AND SHAME.

 

[octophone]

Do you not think it's important that we know?

I'm pleased that the tags have been removed given how upsetting they were, but personally I'm deeply uncomfortable with the perpetrator getting away scot free. If it was a misjudged joke, just fucking own it!

If I hadn't deleted them you'd be posting that it was repulsive that they were still there.

 

[Jark]

Do you not think it's important that we know?

I'm pleased that the tags have been removed given how upsetting they were, but personally I'm deeply uncomfortable with the perpetrator getting away scot free. If it was a misjudged joke, just fucking own it!

I think it's probably more important that somebody who might be offended by it does not have the opportunity to read it and feel shit, than that it stays there and somebody down the line is punished in some vague way long after it's allowed somebody to feel like crap.

 

[VoR]

If I hadn't deleted them you'd be posting that it was repulsive that they were still there.

I literally posted this before you deleted anything.

To be fair, this has been an ongoing debate as well. I agree that offensive tags have no place here, but there's an argument that just deleting them removes accountability from the person who posted them.

Also, FYI, the tag debate thread that all the posts are being moved to is locked.

 

[Beverley]

i appreciate that the mods and admin are volunteers and there is no roadmap on how to deal with this stuff. but it has been dealt with badly. this would a good point for those volunteers to consider whether they are the best people to be shaping our response to this stuff.

that is NOT a request for people to step down by the way. it is a request for some self-reflection. it is a request for the discussion about tags to be shaped, for once, by the minority. if people are hurting, you don't go allowing the unhurt to dictate the terms of play. but the poll we had did exactly that

 

[Tetris-Rock]

I'm pleased that the tags have been removed given how upsetting they were, but personally I'm deeply uncomfortable with the perpetrator getting away scot free. If it was a misjudged joke, just fucking own it!

There is a bit of a case for naming and shaming here.

 

[Dark Carnival]

NAME AND SHAME.

FUCKING DO IT

 

[RS]

Okay, this is the salvaged version so, apologies, it ain't as good:

- white people need to stop congratulating themselves for managing ONE successful conversation about race (in which they mostly shared how the task of anti-racism daunts THEM).

- we ALL, but in this context WHITE PEOPLE, need to move away from this obsession with seeing ourselves as good. it obstructs our learning. it derails important conversations about race. fuck being good. focus on the work.

- white people need to understand the level of distrust that exists amongst communities of colour. i have been let down by many white people, including on this forum. (it's also why i don't fully trust leftist movements and class-based organising). you don't need to flagellate yourselves, nor should you complain that you're trying really hard (not when you had to be SCHOOLED in a drag race thread a couple of weeks ago). you don't deserve a gold star. nor should you yearn for our approval. if you're genuine about being anti-racist, know your history, know your shit, be humble and keep divesting yourselves of your privilege

- but also understand this distrust continues because of the way that racism adapts and evolves. people are very good at appropriating anti-racist language without actually doing anything, especially because it is so easy to look 'good' doing it on social media. so there will always be this tension over whether white people are performing solidarity for themselves. i wrote a cunty message on fb about people putting black squares on their social media cos that shit is MEANINGLESS. it's partly why i suggested the donation, to channel the frustration and the hand-wringing of this thread into something concrete

- white people really need to think about WHO they are listening to, when and why. invariably, ya'll resort to microaggressions when a poc speaks up about their experience, but when a fellow white person confirms the same thing, you actually listen. like this, even conversations about racism become these circuses where white people police the gates and hold the centre

- i called Moopy a white liberal forum rather than a leftist forum, because it is essential to the white liberal condition that you can choose how, when, where and for how long you see race. you decide when racism exists, when it doesn't, when it serves you to deploy stereotypes and racist logic, when a community has 'legitimate questions' to answer. white liberalism is ultimately grounded in self interest, and defending those interests is paramount.

- what i said earlier about the police is the perfect example of this. i questioned the idea that the police provide safety - when the police do not necessarily protect the black body, the brown body, the trans body, the differently-abled body - only for my critique to be labelled 'childish'. but if you're only point is that YOU have not been subjected to the state's violence, that you feel safe under the state, that the state's racist and homophobic logic and brutalising of certain communities for decades has no relevance to you, then not only is that the epitome of white liberals erasure - but it raises far more important questions about how we can operate a system of solidarity? the first rule has to be white ppl building credibility and creating trust. but white people keep throwing pocs under the bus.

- re: policing for my little @Gangsta Nancy Lam (I saw your valuable question before you deleted) - there are two separate questions here: 1. should the police be allowed to participate in Pride in uniform and 2. should pride parades be policed to ensure our security? Re: the former, I don't want the racist, homophobic institution that is the police to be celebrated in Pride. i don't want to erase what they did in stonewall. but also, fuck stonewall, i know that the only body that is safe at pride with these fuckers around is the cis, white, able-bodied body. Re: the latter, there are alternatives to the police, such as better stewarding, community policing and external security arrangements, but these are obviously underdeveloped

- i think what you should all be thinking about isn't just systemic racism, but the operation of white supremacy, and specifically, whiteness. why is it that we all crave proximity to whiteness? why do we know that our lives will be better the closer we are aligned to it. but more interestingly to me, what is it about whiteness that has you treating yourselves as the repositories of authority, neutrality and knowledge? why is it that you grew up believing that you were the centre, that you were inherently good, and why is that goodness so fragile when disrupted? all i know is that i did not grow up with that kind of messaging. so maybe it doesn't hurt so much when i fuck up and expose my ignorance. or when it does hurt, it's because of my own expectations rather than what i have grown up imbibing from society about myself.

- finally, i just have to acknowledge that i am a POC, but i am not Black. i also have to address my own complicity in and benefit from anti-blackness. i'm trying to do the same work as everyone else. and maybe that's why i pushed myself to donate a decent amount of money to the bail funds - to feel like i was doing more than the mental work and the creating spaces, which, at this particular moment, feels less urgent. but i have taken a lot of space in this thread, so i'll shut up for a while.

Regarding your point about whiteness and why we crave its proximity. Is it a physical/visual thing? And if so, how do we solve an issue like this? And is it the white race’s fault?
Or is it a cultural thing, and if so, isn’t it more of a class issue rather than race?

 

[Dark Carnival]

Regarding your point about whiteness and why we crave its proximity. Is it a physical/visual thing? And if so, how do we solve an issue like this? And is it the white race’s fault?
Or is it a cultural thing, and if so, isn’t it more of a class issue rather than race?

Speaking of the visual aspect, the whites have long promoted whiteness (European features) as the standard for beauty. Whereas dark skin, curly hair were considered ugly. This is still very present in the form of 'no black no asian' in the gay community. So yes, it is the whites' fault.

 

[Tetris-Rock]

I may be wrong on all or some of this but the thing about proximity to whiteness about both a visual and cultural thing.

Society upholds white people and white culture as the highest standard when it comes to basically anything.

Proximity to whiteness means that society has more respect for black people that uphold and engage with white people, culture and institutions. An obvious example is around beauty standards - proximity to whiteness potentially factoring in where someone is a person of colour but has a lighter skin tone or more Caucasian features. We may be less wary of a black person if they are friends with our white friend. People might be pay a black person more respect only when they learn he is a policeman. And relevant to this debate, we might listen to a black person’s words only when a white friend has given them a platform.

Another thing is that black people can gain more respect from people not just when they embrace white people and culture, but when they actively distance themselves from black people and culture. There is a bit in the intro to “How To Be Antiracist” where the author cringes at a speech he made in high school when he won an academic award and attacked the supposed attitudes of his fellow blacks to an audience of clapping white people.

I think the main way to counter it as a white person is to recognise your conscious and unconscious biases and make an active effort to counter them.

 

[RS]

Speaking of the visual aspect, the whites have long promoted whiteness (European features) as the standard for beauty. Whereas dark skin, curly hair were considered ugly. This is still very present in the form of 'no black no asian' in the gay community. So yes, it is the whites' fault.

But I mean on a personal level; what can you do about being white?

(And of course I don’t mean that awful ”no black, no Asian” thing.... even though, if I’d again try to be the devil’s advocate, you can’t really help what you’re sexually attracted to)

 

[Loufoque]

Speaking of the visual aspect, the whites have long promoted whiteness (European features) as the standard for beauty. Whereas dark skin, curly hair were considered ugly. This is still very present in the form of 'no black no asian' in the gay community. So yes, it is the whites' fault.

What's worse than the no femmes/Asians is the fetishization that whites display (and I notice this particularly in France) towards a bit of rebeu / black cock (because, you know, they're more "masc" - read: what, wild, uncivilised?)... And of course, these gays see themselves as non-racist and post black squares all day, but really they are engaged in as much of a subconscious racial trope as the old woman who crosses the street to avoid a black man.

 

[RS]

I may be wrong on all or some of this but the thing about proximity to whiteness about both a visual and cultural thing.

Society upholds white people and white culture as the highest standard when it comes to basically anything.

Proximity to whiteness means that society has more respect for black people that uphold and engage with white people, culture and institutions. An obvious example is around beauty standards - proximity to whiteness potentially factoring in where someone is a person of colour but has a lighter skin tone or more Caucasian features. We may be less wary of a black person if they are friends with our white friend. People might be pay a black person more respect only when they learn he is a policeman. And relevant to this debate, we might listen to a black person’s words only when a white friend has given them a platform.

Another thing is that black people can gain more respect from people not just when they embrace white people and culture, but when they actively distance themselves from black people and culture. There is a bit in the intro to “How To Be Antiracist” where the author cringes at a speech he made in high school when he won an academic award and attacked the supposed attitudes of his fellow blacks to an audience of clapping white people.

I think the main way to counter it as a white person is to recognise your conscious and unconscious biases and make an active effort to counter them.

Agreed, but what I’m trying to say is that it just so happens that currently (and for the past couple of centuries) ”white culture” is on top of the chain and therefore it is uphold as the perfect way of living, all other cultures are deemed as inferior. The optics make it a more obvious racial issue, but is not a big part of it a class and cultural thing?

 

[RS]

What's worse than the no femmes/Asians is the fetishization that whites display (and I notice this particularly in France) towards a bit of rebeu / black cock (because, you know, they're more "masc" - read: what, wild, uncivilised?)... And of course, these gays seem themselves as non-racist and post black squares all day, but really they are engaged in as much of a subconscious racial trope as the old woman who crosses the street to avoid a black man.

Yes, but again... does this mean that all of us Arabs or Asian who are into blonds also racists because we fetishize them?

It’s hard not to turn sexual preferences into a matter of objectifying people.

 

[Loufoque]

Yes, but again... does this mean that all of us Arabs or Asian who are into blonds also racists because we fetishize them?

It’s hard not to turn sexual preferences into a matter of objectifying people.

What's problematic about it in the gay community is that sexual roles often seem to be drawn on racial boundaries. Let's not pretend there are not racial politics at play in the black / Arab top vs. white / SE Asian bottom dynamic that exists in gay hook-up culture.

 

[COB]

The sexual racism thing is less about having preferences, and more about the blanket statement of "NO [insert race here]" isn't it? The idea that out of the millions of people who belong to a particular race, you're so confident in the belief that you could NEVER EVER EVER find even a single one of them attractive that you can put it out there like that. That is racist. There's also the damaging psychological effect seeing profile after profile saying "no, not YOU" every day can have on people of colour.

 

[KC 🦋]

We don't want excuses. We just want names.

 

[RS]

The sexual racism thing is less about having preferences, and more about the blanket statement of "NO [insert race here]" isn't it? The idea that out of the millions of people who belong to a particular race, you're so confident in the belief that you could NEVER EVER EVER find even a single one of them attractive that you can put it out there like that. That is racist. There's also the damaging psychological effect seeing profile after profile saying "no, not YOU" every day can have on people of colour.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[KC 🦋]

Another thing is that black people can gain more respect from people not just when they embrace white people and culture, but when they actively distance themselves from black people and culture

The White Knight