George Floyd and the police brutality debate

The Moopy jury says

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Mugatu said:
It may have been a different case before Obama, but I do think people of colour are now very much part of the narrative of the white mainstream left in America. The narrative itself is the problem.

White liberals are firmly progressive on racial issues like affirmative action, diversity and immigration, even to the point where they're more progressive than actual black and Latino people. Elizabeth Warren endorsed reparations and said all of the right intersectional buzzwords, then ended up with a voter base of almost exclusively highly-educated white people. The media is full of self-flagellating articles about whiteness.

The liberal narrative is the problem because it conveniently ignores more effective, class-based solutions, even though universal policies disproportionately help POC. When you separate something material like class from race, racism becomes this autonomous, innate force that can only be dealt with individually (paraphrasing this Adolph Reed article). This reduces the potential for cross-racial, working-class solidarity (which we've seen in these riots) and prevents the structural racism maintained by capitalism from being seriously challenged. They're fighting the issue with their hands in their pockets.

This means there's a vested interest in Amazon tweeting about BLM, or Shell Oil sponsoring the 1619 Project (which has a long list of its own issues), or elite Democrats calling out protestors for white privilege. It pays just enough lip service to the existence of racism to satisfy the academics, leaders and professionals at the top, without really changing very much for poor people of colour.
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As always your words resonate with me deeply.
 
There's a march planned here for Saturday. The comments section on the article on the local paper website is utterly horrifying.
 
octophone said:
Feel free to piss off then.
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I'm honestly not sure what your intention was with this and I could be reading it wrong, but it reads just like the "if you don't like America then leave" comments you see in the replies to just about every tweet on this topic at the moment...
 
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COB said:
I'm honestly not sure what your intention was with this and I could be reading it wrong, but it reads just like the "if you don't like America then leave" comments you see in the replies to just about every tweet on this topic at the moment...
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There's no comparison at all.

Moopy is a small-scale music-based web forum with a recent user peak of just over 100 in a week. If it's too white, too gay, too mean, too anything, you have myriad options.

Comments like "there are too many white people in this thread" are thoroughly unhelpful, especially in a thread with nothing but outright condemnation at the events. Don't moan that there are too many white people if you're not going to tell them what books to read, what films to watch, what testimonies to read, where to donate etc.
 
I don't know if @Logic? is a person of colour - from those posts I'm assuming yes, which is why seeing a white person saying if they don't like how things are then leave doesn't really sit right with me. As for recommending us things to read, watch etc, of course that's an option but it also isn't up to them to do that work for you.
 
octophone said:
There's no comparison at all.

Moopy is a small-scale music-based web forum with a recent user peak of just over 100 in a week. If it's too white, too gay, too mean, too anything, you have myriad options.

Comments like "there are too many white people in this thread" are thoroughly unhelpful, especially in a thread with nothing but outright condemnation at the events. Don't moan that there are too many white people if you're not going to tell them what books to read, what films to watch, what testimonies to read, where to donate etc.
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Okie dokie. I’ll do just that.

And for the record I did mention books and even praised a poster in one of my posts. Fuck you and moopy lol.
 
COB said:
I don't know if @Logic? is a person of colour - from those posts I'm assuming yes, which is why seeing a white person saying if they don't like how things are then leave doesn't really sit right with me. As for recommending us things to read, watch etc, of course that's an option but it also isn't up to them to do that work for you.
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I get what you're saying but I don't feel that two posts complaining about there being too many white people is a worthwhile contribution.

Now - if there are reasons why Moopy is too white, then I'm happy to hear them. Like a lot of people, I'm realising that I have only just scratched the surface of how institutionalised racism functions and I've ordered some books that I've seen recommended over the weekend. But just lobbing comments like that into a thread is useless.
 
lolly said:
There's a march planned here for Saturday. The comments section on the article on the local paper website is utterly horrifying.
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They had someone here on local radio SUPPORTING the police actions despite the fact he hadn’t even watched the video :manson:
 
octophone said:
There's no comparison at all.

Moopy is a small-scale music-based web forum with a recent user peak of just over 100 in a week. If it's too white, too gay, too mean, too anything, you have myriad options.

Comments like "there are too many white people in this thread" are thoroughly unhelpful, especially in a thread with nothing but outright condemnation at the events. Don't moan that there are too many white people if you're not going to tell them what books to read, what films to watch, what testimonies to read, where to donate etc.
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Sorry octy but this is... not a good take.

We may be a tiny niche forum in the grand scheme of things, but if we are indeed an overwhelmingly white space then that's something we need to reckon with as much as any other organisation. I strongly suspect if you dig into it we've had a disproportionate number of posters of colour who haven't chosen to stick around for a myriad of reasons. We absolutely haven't been good enough in the past when it comes to cracking down on racially inflammatory content, and that's just looking at the most egregious stuff. I'm sure there's a whole well of deeper microagressions of you scratch the surface a little.

I'm not saying we're intrinsically bad people, but we have as much responsibility as anyone to acknowledge that we could do better. And as COB says, it is absolutely not Logic, or Beverley or any other poster of colour's responsibility to educate you.
 
VoR said:
Sorry octy but this is... not a good take.

We may be a tiny niche forum in the grand scheme of things, but if we are indeed an overwhelmingly white space then that's something we need to reckon with as much as any other organisation. I strongly suspect if you dig into it we've had a disproportionate number of posters of colour who haven't chosen to stick around for a myriad of reasons. We absolutely haven't been good enough in the past when it comes to cracking down on racially inflammatory content, and that's just looking at the most egregious stuff. I'm sure there's a whole well of deeper microagressions of you scratch the surface a little.

I'm not saying we're intrinsically bad people, but we have as much responsibility as anyone to acknowledge that we could do better. And as COB says, it is absolutely not Logic, or Beverley or any other poster of colour's responsibility to educate you.
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THANKYOU.

I legit am never ever signing into this website again after that post from octophone. Trying to play billy big bollocks.
 
It was a glib response and I regret it - apologies to @Logic?

However, I'm already feeling overwhelmed with the pressure to somehow "do better" - being told I'm deficient without any explanation of what anyone wants of me or where the flaws are has too many resonances. I know the flaws are there because so many people are telling me there are but I need help to find them.

I'm not asking people to take responsibility for my education but I can see that interpretation - again, it was born of frustration and I apologise for that.

However, I am asking everyone to be constructive.
 
octophone said:
It was a glib response and I regret it - apologies to @Logic?

However, I'm already feeling overwhelmed with the pressure to somehow "do better" - being told I'm deficient without any explanation of what anyone wants of me or where the flaws are has too many resonances. I know the flaws are there because so many people are telling me there are but I need help to find them.

I'm not asking people to take responsibility for my education but I can see that interpretation - again, it was born of frustration and I apologise for that.

However, I am asking everyone to be constructive.
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I do not accept your apology and as an admin of this site I suggest you do better and so fuck if people are telling you do to so.

I’m not telling Queen Mugatu and COB and VOR and plenty others to do better. He obviously does. I’m seriously never coming back on here it’s not worth it hahahabut guys and gays please do better!

peace out
 
Logic? said:
I do not accept your apology and as an admin of this site I suggest you do better and so fuck if people are telling you do to so.
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Don't leave! An admin is still a poster like the rest of us. She was very rude to me yesterday, so what?
 
I cannot pretend to have the life experience of a POC because I don’t and I’m not a POC. However, in a thread where we have (as previously stated) done nothing but condemn recent incidents, I genuinely do not understand how “There are too many white people in this thread” is constructive. That’s why I liked the post by @octophone and I’m not going to furtively unlike it to avoid condemnation. If someone could explain why it is constructive, please do.
 
Surely part of a solution is applying the old proverb about giving a man a fish vs. teaching a man to fish, obviously without the teaching part. More black owned publications and businesses is what is needed rather than just employing a few front facing black people to give the illusion of diversity and integration. If a book written by a black author is published and edited by a white person who tries to make certain situations and characters "more relatable", then surely it's no more authentic than Madonna dressed as a Geisha.

I was speaking to one of my best friends yesterday and one of her oldest friends who I also know, adopted a 6 year old girl last year and now she's nearly 7. She's concerned as her daughter has been expressing subtle racist behaviours, related to the awful abusive circumstances where she was born - doesn't help that they live in a very white area in Kent with only a few black children in school. My friend who is Mauritian and has a mixed baby herself has been trying to think of specific positive black people in media (like films and TV shows) for young children. There's a lot for toddlers and teenagers, but not all that much for the in-betweens where race isn't the specific subject.
 
Ellie said:
Surely part of a solution is applying the old proverb about giving a man a fish vs. teaching a man to fish, obviously without the teaching part. More black owned publications and businesses is what is needed rather than just employing a few front facing black people to give the illusion of diversity and integration. If a book written by a black author is published and edited by a white person who tries to make certain situations and characters "more relatable", then surely it's no more authentic than Madonna dressed as a Geisha.
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It's the same where I work - they loooove parroting about the high percentage of BAME people they employ but you HARDLY EVER see a BAME person in charge of anything meaningful, middle managers yes, ground troopers, yes, but very, very few in charge. And I'm sure that the few that are in charge feel the pressure of the SILENT MAJORITY to not act/be/lead the company in a way that is "TOO Black/Asian/etc."

I don't think I've ever seen even just TWO BAME people in executive roles in a meeting, talking to each other as equals.
 
Ellie said:
Surely part of a solution is applying the old proverb about giving a man a fish vs. teaching a man to fish, obviously without the teaching part. More black owned publications and businesses is what is needed rather than just employing a few front facing black people to give the illusion of diversity and integration. If a book written by a black author is published and edited by a white person who tries to make certain situations and characters "more relatable", then surely it's no more authentic than Madonna dressed as a Geisha.

I was speaking to one of my best friends yesterday and one of her oldest friends who I also know, adopted a 6 year old girl last year and now she's nearly 7. She's concerned as her daughter has been expressing subtle racist behaviours, related to the awful abusive circumstances where she was born - doesn't help that they live in a very white area in Kent with only a few black children in school. My friend who is Mauritian and has a mixed baby herself has been trying to think of specific positive black people in media (like films and TV shows) for young children. There's a lot for toddlers and teenagers, but not all that much for the in-betweens where race isn't the specific subject.
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I found this yesterday, I'm a bit gutted Ron Jr is too old for A IS FOR ACTIVIST

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...Z6WtOZh0BM6zVDQU6ChXJqiAxZ1u-kUnagV2VskOi3TfA
 
There is something in that document for everyone, from toddlers to adults, and a lot of it is UK focused, I’ve found a lot of valuable stuff as a parent and an adult trying to understand
 
The demand to be constructive is not helpful. It suggests POC are only useful as long as they serve a purpose and don't make white folk feel uncomfortable. Yet I have been constructive enough times on here only to be gaslit through tags and whatever for being a know-it-all, or told that I should be grateful that the mods are taking my concerns seriously.

Will reply to other bits after my meeting with Mrs Beverley. :disco: Who, by the way, is the very definition of a TRUE ALLY. She donated to bail funds several days ago and never even told me! (OMG she's so adorable!)
 
There was a Tweet going around yesterday asking how old people were when they had their first black school teacher.

Like a vast majority of respondents, I don't think I ever did.
 
VoR said:
There was a Tweet going around yesterday asking how old people were when they had their first black school teacher.

Like a vast majority of respondents, I don't think I ever did.
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Not until University. Even the Sociology department had no BAME staff, which they constantly self berated themselves for.
 
Beverley said:
The demand to be constructive is not helpful. It suggests POC are only useful as long as they serve a purpose and don't make white folk feel uncomfortable. Yet I have been constructive enough times on here only to be gaslit through tags and whatever for being a know-it-all, or told that I should be grateful that the mods are taking my concerns seriously.
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Look, I've fucked up royally here and I'm not interested in digging myself a bigger hole.

My desire for things to be constructive is site-based rather than world-based. This isn't Twitter, it's a small community.
 
I don't even think I had a black (or non-white) lecturer in four years of University. It really is damning.
 
VoR said:
There was a Tweet going around yesterday asking how old people were when they had their first black school teacher.

Like a vast majority of respondents, I don't think I ever did.
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I had none. I had several brown teachers but no black teachers and one black pupil who joined the year I left.
University was, if anything worse - one brown lecturer in 4 years.

(Context - Glasgow, late 70's to mid 90's)
 
big ron said:
Of all the things I've found most positive to me is this: https://www.theblackcurriculum.com/ - I've long had an issue with the national curriculum and the way it skimps around a lot of important issues, this one included. Its particularly important to me know my child is opted into that curriculum. (For now)
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Blocked at work as per bloody usual. I'll check that when I get home.

I've bought Akala's "Natives" and have "When They Call You A Terrorist" on order - dunno where I;m gonna get the time; it's hard enough keeping up with feminist literature that isn't transphobic.
 
VoR said:
There was a Tweet going around yesterday asking how old people were when they had their first black school teacher.

Like a vast majority of respondents, I don't think I ever did.
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:o Oh my first primary school teacher was black, but I think she was the only one in the school. We had a Nigerian Science teacher in secondary school but again, maybe the only one.
 
octophone said:
Look, I've fucked up royally here and I'm not interested in digging myself a bigger hole.

My desire for things to be constructive is site-based rather than world-based. This isn't Twitter, it's a small community.
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Honestly, I want to say that there is no demand for perfection in this. Anti-racism is the willingness to commit oneself to the cause - beginning with teaching and improving ourselves. Contrary to popular belief, I don't know everything, I'm just reading, learning, discussing, reacting like everyone else.
 
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Logic? said:
I do not accept your apology and as an admin of this site I suggest you do better and so fuck if people are telling you do to so.

I’m not telling Queen Mugatu and COB and VOR and plenty others to do better. He obviously does. I’m seriously never coming back on here it’s not worth it hahahabut guys and gays please do better!

peace out
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Hope you don’t actually leave. You clearly have something to bring to moopy and it would be a shame to lose that.
 
Beverley said:
Honestly, I want to say that there is no demand for perfection in this. Anti-racism is the willingness to commit oneself to the cause - beginning with teaching and improving ourselves. Contrary to popular belief, I don't know everything, I'm just reading, learning, discussing, reacting like everyone else.
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Thank you. I think that's a big part of this for me. I find it almost impossible to keep up with everything that I need to know, need to read, need to see in order to be a "good" person. Which makes this fuck up all the worse because I've done the exact thing that I've tried not to do - get overwhelmed and go "fine, I give up, piss off". I can barely keep up with social/political dialogue about being trans.
 
Dark Carnival said:
Hope you don’t actually leave. You clearly have something to bring to moopy and it would be a shame to lose that.
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I hope Logic? doesn't leave too but I take responsibility for it if that's the outcome.
 
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