The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

If you care about children in Gaza, advocate for Hamas to unconditionally surrender, release the hostages, and end the war.
As long as Hamas Remains Committed to the Death and Destruction of Israel, there's no other way to end this.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
Also this is ridiculously disingenuous too, and you know it
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It has had almost complete administrative control since 2007. Sorry, I don't understand why that is controversial let alone disingenuous.
 
Kratz said:
It has had almost complete administrative control since 2007. Sorry, I don't understand why that is controversial let alone disingenuous.
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Describing Hamas as the elected government when that election was 18 years ago, with the median age of a Gazan just before the war being 18. Whilst they are in administrative control, there is no democratic legitimacy to Hamas' governance, nor has there been for a long time.
 
Kratz said:
I think the point @Voodoo was trying to make is that Hamas invaded Israel. That is a fact. In turn Hamas is the elected governmental authority of Gaza (granted it hasn’t held an election in a long time but polls tend to show strong public support on the ground - albeit difficult to know what the position is right now) and on that basis the attack on 7th October is akin to one state attacking another (and the other state, in this case Israel, then retaliating).

Perhaps I have interpreted it incorrectly but to me that doesn’t seem like an outrageous position that we cannot tolerate being articulated.
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It’s not the fact of Israel responding to a terror attack though, it’s the methods they’re employing in doing so. Which are, inarguably, causing massive amounts of civilian death and suffering. At best Israel’s approach has been stunningly callous. At worst it is a deliberate and strategic act of genocide.

Either way “but German civilians died in 1945” is disingenuous whataboutery. 80 years have passed - Israel has the full throated support of the majority of major western powers. There are more sophisticated approaches they could have taken to defend their people and weaken Hamas while minimising the civilian casualties. The Israeli government has made an active choice not to do that. To my mind that is indefensible.
 
Also, even if the majority of Gazans had voted for Hamas yesterday, how does that justify 20,000 dead children?
 
VoR said:
It’s not the fact of Israel responding to a terror attack though, it’s the methods they’re employing in doing so. Which are, inarguably, causing massive amounts of civilian death and suffering. At best Israel’s approach has been stunningly callous. At worst it is a deliberate and strategic act of genocide.

Either way “but German civilians died in 1945” is disingenuous whataboutery. 80 years have passed - Israel has the full throated support of the majority of major western powers. There are more sophisticated approaches they could have taken to defend their people and weaken Hamas while minimising the civilian casualties. The Israeli government has made an active choice not to do that. To my mind that is indefensible.
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To be clear, I don't disagree. I just think it is incredibly important when emotions are running so high that we find a way to engage with each other. That's why I wanted to post my interpretation of what I think @Voodoo was trying to say.
 
RJN said:
I've given Voodoo a warning. He also "laugh" reacted to some of my posts that are about people dying, as well as @GinAg (39)'s and @Soldi's
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Oh dear. There's really no need and I am not going to bother trying to be a devil's advocate on here for the more minority voices in such an emotional issue if those same voices are delighting in the deaths of children.
 
Voodoo said:
Excuse me, but WHY?!

It's a FACT that many terrorists believe they are going to meet 72 female virgins in heaven.

m.malaysiakini.com

‘72 virgins reward’ a way terrorists attract ignorant Muslims

SPECIAL REPORT | Ex-army veteran Abdul Manaf believes M'sia can tackle growing threat of IS attacks.
m.malaysiakini.com m.malaysiakini.com
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You've now had two warnings. Stop being deliberately antagonistic. We've all watched South Park, we all know that some people have distorted Islam to promise young men a glorious virgin based heaven.
 
I’ve had 27 reaction notifications from Voodoo overnight

Just to tell you I won’t be checking any of them.

Why are the right wing ones always NUTJOBS?

Like I said yesterday, give me one balanced, sensible argument on the validity of the Israeli attacks on Gaza. Until then, fuck off.
 
Funky said:
What in the blue fuckery is this?

Hamas invaded Israel, deadliest terror attack in history? The same as WW2?

Are you trying to sound stupid?
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No. Are you?

Trying to minimise October 7th isn't cool and isn't a good look, I'm afraid.
 
VoR said:
I don’t understand how the comparison to WW2 is somehow supposed to absolve Israel of the deaths of all those civilians.
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Many of said "civilians" are actually terrorists dressed as civilians, for pro-Hamas propaganda purposes.
 
Voodoo said:
No. Are you?

Trying to minimise October 7th isn't cool and isn't a good look, I'm afraid.
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There’s been a dozen terrorist attacks around the world since October 7th, have you mentioned any of them?

Am I to assume that, because you haven’t, you minimise them?

We did our condemnation of October 7th when it happened, unfortunately terrorist attacks have become the norm around the world. It was sick and wrong and nobody minimised anything. Yes, Hamas can fuck off because they’re damaging and dangerous and evil.

The fact that I have to explain this to you (and anyone else who has to whataout the Israeli government every time with Hamas) just shows your inability to disconnect one isolated incident of terror with a UN recognised government’s sustained attack on innocent people that has caused the death of thousands of people and the destruction of a civilisation. Comparing the two is CRUEL and a systematic erasure of an entire people.
 
Banned
Funky said:
Comparing it to WW2 is so fucking ignorant I’m stunned at the argument.
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No. It really isn't. Both Nazi Germany and Hamas have / had the same ideology and intentions. They want(ed) all Jews to be dead, and thus deserve the same treatment from the world.
 
Voodoo said:
No. It really isn't. Both Nazi Germany and Hamas have / had the same ideology and intentions. They want(ed) all Jews to be dead, and thus deserve the same treatment from the world.
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There are thousands of Nazis living in Germany right now. They probably live among normal Germans in towns and cities across the country. Why don’t you let Israel know, because apparently they’re okay with bombing a few tower blocks and killing everyone, as long as they get the Nazis.

Seems to fit your rationale.
 
Funky said:
There’s been a dozen terrorist attacks around the world since October 7th, have you mentioned any of them?

Am I to assume that, because you haven’t, you minimise them?

We did our condemnation of October 7th when it happened, unfortunately terrorist attacks have become the norm around the world. It was sick and wrong and nobody minimised anything. Yes, Hamas can fuck off because they’re damaging and dangerous and evil.

The fact that I have to explain this to you (and anyone else who has to whataout the Israeli government every time with Hamas) just shows your inability to disconnect one isolated incident of terror with a UN recognised government’s sustained attack on innocent people that has caused the death of thousands of people and the destruction of a civilisation. Comparing the two is CRUEL and a systematic erasure of an entire people.
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Really well said @Funky
 
I don’t normally support bannings just for having a stupid argument but it was laugh reacting to some very intense posts so it clearly didn’t want to contribute properly

Buh-bye.
 
Funky said:
I don’t normally support bannings just for having a stupid argument but it was laugh reacting to some very intense posts so it clearly didn’t want to contribute properly

Buh-bye.
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Exactly. As I hope is clear from my posts, I want multiple voices to be heard, because this is such a horrible moment in history with so much hurt and suffering on both sides, but that poster was driven solely by hate.
 
What a shitshow. It's remarkable to me how people cannot hold two thoughts in their head at once. But this is what you end up with when you devolve the worlds conversations to tweets and YES OR NO/GOOD OR BAD questions.
 
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